Need Mic-Level Input Jack!
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Topic URL: http://www.neurosaudio.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1882
Printed on: 03/24/2006
Topic:
Topic author: jimson8
Subject: Need Mic-Level Input Jack! I just purchased a Neuros recorder that I plan to use to record sound for broadcast on the radio. Problem is, although I have not yet tested the built-in mic, I doubt it will be able to record broadcast-quality audio, not because of poor file quality but because of the physical limitations of the mic itself (and it's awkward and difficult for me, as a reporter, to have to stick this box in people's faces rather than being able to use a microphone). In order to use a regular mic with the line-level input on the Neuros, I had to purchase a special cable for about $70 that amplifies the mic-level input about 20dB.
Replies:
Posted on: 11/23/2003 10:48:39 PM
Message:
There's been a vibrant discussion going back and forth on several radio listservs recently about the need for a digital audio recorder with a mic-level input jack (it's surprising that it doesn't exist already!). Most of us have been using portable minidisc, tape or DAT recorders, but we'd love a reliable, digital solution where we'd simply be able to transfer the audio files into our computer editing programs rather than waiting while they dub in real time. Neuros should seriously consider including a line-level mic jack (with the capability to both manually and automatically adjust record levels)in future products.
Reply author: plazar3(at)netscape.net
Replied on: 11/24/2003 01:41:32 AM
Message:
My wife is a voice student. she could really use a high fidelity means of recording her lessons, but even boom boxes lack a microphone input. The typical 1/2 hour lesson is not so long that it can not fit on even a 128MB unit. These digital recorders are soo very close to eliminating cassette tapes at an affordable price. All they need is the input for a pair of wide frequency response microphones. They all seem to be designed for stealing music. Don't enough people actually MAKE music anymore for marketing departments of the various DVR manufacturers to have discovered such a need? The Neuros have some really class act features. Music departments at universities would be a gold mine of customers, if you could turn it into a basic stereo mike recording studio.
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 11/24/2003 11:16:52 AM
Message:
People who record don't use Mic inputs... They use Line in with an amplifier.
Besides the Neuros has an onboard mic... set the gain to 20 and you should be able to record whatever you like.
-Jeff
Reply author: IanJ
Replied on: 11/24/2003 1:47:18 PM
Message:
I agree that it would be fabulous to have a mic input -- what I'd really like to see is an arrangement where there's a mic preamp attached to the "line in" jack (which would have to be renamed to "audio in" or something), which can be switched in and out of the path, so that you can plug in either a line-level source or a mic-level source. The hardware should ideally be able to switch the preamp out of the path when it senses line-level voltages to avoid damaging things. Turning on the mic preamp would probably have to be manual, since there's no easy way to tell the difference between a quiet line-level input and a loud mic-level input (unless you want to go around sensing impedance, but that's probably too much work for this price-point).
Until that change is made, it couldn't be that hard to use a small mic preamp like this one: https://www.outwardsound.com/products.php/13/193/?PHPSESSID=230d9960ea624e5d8341c512ffb81d3a
Sure, it's more money, but paying $200 for a good-quality recorder in any kind of professional capacity is an insane bargain. That's nothing compared to a professional-quality portable MD recorder for $1000+. (Yes, I'm aware that they're not comparable, I'm "just sayin'").
128/20 bundle, Seattle, WA
Reply author: unknown_lamer
Replied on: 11/24/2003 4:21:03 PM
Message:
If you spent $70 on a cable that boosts the signal by 20dB you were ripped off. Cables can't boost the signal level...maybe you purchased a lo-z to hi-z impedance matcher, which still should have only cost maybe fifteen bucks. The problem, I think, is that any mic worth using (except for my hi-z overhead mics, but don't tell anyone I own them...) is going to be lo-z (low impedance) and the Neuros' line in in high impedance (probably 250 kOhms or so) so the lo-z mic isn't having too much fun being run into an impedance load that high.
For the Neuros to accept lo-z inputs it would need a different set of input hardware and would be quite expensive. So just buy a hi-z mic or a twenty dollar impedance matcher.
Reply author: badpoetryabounds
Replied on: 11/25/2003 11:10:12 AM
Message:
You can use a regular microphone on the line in jack. Then simply normalize the recording in a digital audio editing program like Adobe Audition. It works great for me. There's not buzz in the background with a decent microphone.
Also, you could use a powered mic and not have to worry about normalizing the recording.
I use my Neuros every day for recording (I'm not a reporter anymore, but I work in politics) press conferences, interviews, and actualities. It works wonders. By the way, the internal mic is actually pretty damn good, and it's really no different than holding a handheld cassette recorder up to someone. Actually, it may make people feel more at ease than shoving a mic in their faces.
badpoetryabounds
Reply author: IanJ
Replied on: 11/26/2003 1:04:29 PM
Message:
If you guys are looking for a professional solid-state recorder, you're kind of barking up the wrong tree. There is one available: http://www.martelelectronics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store;_Code=ME∏_Code=PMD670&Category;_Code=MDRR, a Marantz PMD670. There must be others as well, that's just one that I noticed recently. It's not cheap, but real professional gear never is, as I was saying in my previous post on this subject. The Neuros is definitely a consumer device, and has features and price to match.
If you want a real microphone input (and by "real" I mean an XLR with available phantom power, none of this sissy 3.5mm headphone plug stuff), get the Marantz. If you want an inexpensive digital recorder, get a line-level amplifier box and use your Radio Shack tie-clip with the Neuros, or go back and up the level in Audition after you've recorded your audio. But please, don't get the Neuros expecting it to be a piece of professional-quality gear with commensurate features.
128/20 bundle, Seattle, WA
Reply author: badpoetryabounds
Replied on: 11/26/2003 2:30:21 PM
Message:
I have a Marantz Mini-disc recorder here at work, but I bought the Neuros for personal and work use. I use it in my car in leiu of my CD player (my car stereo was always touchy about burned discs), and the flash pack is nice for walking around the lake.
You can't tell the difference in sound quality at all between the Mini-Disc and the Neuros. I'd agree that a Marantz recorder like that would be nice, but in all honesty, if you're looking for a recorder that can instanteously transfer a sound file to a computer (instead of the Mini-Disc or cassette where you have to play it via a board into your computer), the Neuros is a great product for it.
Besides, the battery life on the Marantz products is pretty abysmal, and they aren't exactly small...
bpa
Reply author: plazar3(at)netscape.net
Replied on: 11/26/2003 3:47:26 PM
Message:
My original interest was simply in capturing music lessons for play back and study later, not a recording studio quality deck. I may be dating myself but I remember when a Sony TC100 casette deck was sufficient for the task, but wow, flutter and frequency stability were always more of an issue than anything. From what I have learned to date, the Neuros 128 with perhaps a 50-100 dollar battery powered microphone or preamp+mic makes a heck of a lesson recorder and gives great archiving and playback flexibility.
The original posting was about recording for radio playback, Can not speak for that person for sure but I suspect they also have a need short of state of the art studio.
With preamp input, the new WAV recording capability and the 20Gb hard drive, the capture quality may be WAY more than what I need. WAV on a 128Mb unit is too much
Reply author: In A Vacuum
Replied on: 12/01/2003 03:43:30 AM
Message:
If I had a stereo mic from a minidisc player can I just plug it
into the Neuros and record a live show? If not, where can I get a
cheap amp to boost the signal?
Thanks.
Block banner ads now: http://everythingisnt.com/hosts.html
Reply author: the_emo_kid
Replied on: 12/23/2003 2:01:35 PM
Message:
quote:
But please, don't get the Neuros expecting it to be a piece of professional-quality gear with commensurate features.
like most people, I read the specs before I purchased and knew there wasn't a preamp input, so I didn't expect it, but this is a wish list of things we would like in the future, is it not?! why not add a preamp input?
quote:
If I had a stereo mic from a minidisc player can I just plug it
into the Neuros and record a live show? If not, where can I get a
cheap amp to boost the signal?
no you can't just plug it as the signal would be to weak..
The bottom line here - we need a mic-level input, sure if we turn the gain up on the onboard mic we can record whatever we like - but the quality sucks. If we want to use am external mic, we have to buy an amplifier! Why do that to a product, I mean sony knows better than that, as the put mic inputs on their MD recorders and what not, why not be the ones to provide that on a HD-based mp3 recorder
quote:
People who record don't use Mic inputs... They use Line in with an amplifier.
I'm surprised that you jeff know the recording habits of everyone (or that you're willing to make such a generlized statement...)
Reply author: Stephenn
Replied on: 01/04/2004 8:51:51 PM
Message:
Check out the FAQs here:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com
They have alot of good tips. For good results, get a mic preamp and "battery module" (which biases the mic properly).
I am with you on this though, if someone had put in a good mic preamp and bias on a MP3 recorder, I would get one. But the market for something like that is pretty small.
Reply author: Third Rail Design Lab
Replied on: 01/05/2004 12:39:47 AM
Message:
As a Moderator in a Minidisc user forum, T-Station, I talked with the DI team several times about the current (April 03) and future state of Neuros' onboard recording options. I believe they made the correct choice in providing a line in, but not a mic in, jack. The associated cost versus the quality of input on the mic in makes it prohibitive, given the other issues prioritized before it, such as WAV recording, multiple recording levels, etc. Though it's true that many portable recorder users do use Mic In (especially popular with MD users without sophisticated recording gear) most DAT users, and the MD users who've put some money into their recording setup, have gone the route of using line in, combined with a good quality set of mics (binaural is popular for source specific recording) and a battery module. The balance of the recording, the quality of the boosted mic sensitivity, and the bass roll-off filter in the battery module make the resulting recorded data the most consistent content.
By "most" I mean the majority of serious MD and DAT users that I have known, talked to, or dealt with on the forums. Does this invalidate the demand for a mic in? I don't think so. I would guess that 'most' Neuros users, based on comments I read on this forum daily, don't have a battery module and mic set up as I described. Therefore, a mic in would satisfy the broader ranger of Neuros users. That having been said, the DI team have worked to provide high-quality lossy or lossless field recording capability on the Neuros that rivals many MD units, and surpasses other HDD's on the market (and did so months before they were able to compete at all)...
Just the two cents of someone who makes field recordings regularly.
Reply author: In A Vacuum
Replied on: 01/05/2004 01:44:20 AM
Message:
So where can I find a cheap "battery module?" The site linked let to a FAQ that said 'this is not for boosting the signal for mic in'
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Reply author: EricMatz
Replied on: 01/06/2004 10:37:05 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by Stephenn
But the market for something like that is pretty small.
The market may be small, but I doubt the feature would be that costly to add. Look at the competition - the new iRiver iHP-120 is touting a Stereo microphone input (1/8" miniplug) with "plug in power", eliminating the need for an external preamp. I won't go into comparing the other features, but that thing is $399. I don't know what the Neuros cost prior to the drop to $199, but I'm guessing not as much as the iRiver. Add a mic input and keep the price down, the competition won't be able to hang (assuming the other features are similar/better...again, I don't know). Extra hardware (battery packs, expensive mics, "special cables") is a hassle.
I sing with a group of 50 guys, each one of which records the 3-hour weekly rehearsal for them to review the rest of the week (using a lavalier mic - we are stanging on risers the entire time). Most use minidisc or cassette, but I know many who are itching for something digital. It would be awesome to be able archive whatever you want to save without having to go through the hassle of ripping it to MP3 or saving stacks of tapes/MDs. There are hundreds more groups just like us around the country, so there's a market (albeit small) to be tapped.
Reply author: plazar3(at)netscape.net
Replied on: 01/06/2004 5:09:17 PM
Message:
First, if the Neuros has a built in mike, does it not have at least some kind of pre-amp circuit inherently, even if mono? Question is how to jack into and bypass the built in mike circuit?
Second, I have seen an amplified stereo mike unit from Sound Professionals (SP-BOOSTER). Specifications look passable for most of the purposes discussed here, but for ca. $80, I am reluctant to try without asking has anyone else tried it with the Neuros?
Reply author: rocketman768
Replied on: 01/08/2004 4:50:27 PM
Message:
I tried to get around this problem by using a simple op-amp circuit and a 9-volt battery...didn't turn out too well...not too much amplification and a heck of a lot of noise. But, there's got to be a low-noise, simple circuit somewhere that does the 60db boost quite nicely. Please, for God's sakes, does anybody electronic-savvy know of such a circuit?
Reply author: aidoc
Replied on: 01/13/2004 06:59:15 AM
Message:
Im waiting for a solid state mp3 player/recorder to become available which has a stereo microphone input socket. I am a musician and record sounds and samples for use in compositions.
It would be great if a stereo mini jack input was implemented. And also the ability to record in an uncompressed format such as wav or aiff.
Somebody suggested using an XLR input. This would defeat the purpose of portability for me. Somebody also metioned recording into the line in and then increasing the gain in a software application. This deteriorates the sound quality (which is crucialy important to me). Recording sound at 16bits very quietly and then amplfying it is analogous to recording the sound in at a lower bit rate to begin with as the audio is effectivley 'rounded-off' on amplification.
(This would work better with 24bit formats however)
I would definetly buy a Nueros if this were implemeted.
Reply author: EricMatz
Replied on: 01/13/2004 07:47:59 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by aidoc
It would be great if a stereo mini jack input was implemented. And also the ability to record in an uncompressed format such as wav or aiff.
I believe the latest firmware allows you to record in .wav format up to 48khz.
My Neuros is coming today. I'm going to give the recording a shot. I just need something that I can do music recordings on, listen to them for a week or so, and save what I want. Having that capability in the same unit as an MP3 jukebox is sweet. I'll post my thoughts after I have a chance to play around.
Reply author: kronin
Replied on: 01/13/2004 10:12:36 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by EricMatzquote:
Originally posted by aidoc
It would be great if a stereo mini jack input was implemented. And also the ability to record in an uncompressed format such as wav or aiff.
I believe the latest firmware allows you to record in .wav format up to 48khz.
This is correct. You can set record quality to 48 KHz wav since at least firmware 1.45 (I think it was in there earlier, though).
Reply author: EricMatz
Replied on: 01/13/2004 7:59:47 PM
Message:
Neuros came today. Got the 128 MB for $99 at JandR. Figured I'd get one of the new USB2 backpacks for more storage when they come out.
Anyway, tried the voice recorder. The sound from the built-in mic isn't bad, but there was some background noise - which is odd, this not being a hard-drive backpack. It was charging at the time, so who knows.
No luck whatsoever with an external mic. I tried two mics (one being a condenser) and did not hear a thing on the recordings. I'll try the line-in with another source later to make sure I don't have a bad jack. Next step will be trying an amplified external mic.
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 01/13/2004 8:28:13 PM
Message:
You can also try changing the gain while recording.
-Jeff
edit: Also, I mentioned this in another post, if you don't really care so much about quality for $10 from radio shack or <$0.99 on ebay you can buy this thing called a spy ear (I forget what they call it at radio shack.) Anyway, it is a listening device but you can hook up the headphone out to the Neuros line in and it works great as a powered external mic!
Reply author: powderific
Replied on: 01/14/2004 11:26:59 PM
Message:
I have a headphone amp that I use for high impedance headphones that is basically a very clean sounding op-amp. Would something like that be able to boost the signal of a mic to acceptable levels?
Reply author: aidoc
Replied on: 05/13/2004 07:36:55 AM
Message:
*!bump!*
Just checking-in! I do every few months to see if Nueros has been fitted with a stereo mic input socket. I've been holding out on buying a solid state audio recorder until this happens. Can you believe that NO such product exists!?
I currently use my minidisk to record sounds with a stereo mic
http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?stk_code=micbsm3&svbname;=304
its ok, but your limited in many ways. (disk space, atrac compression, etc)
But I don't want to be burdened with having to carry preamps for the line in around - (not to mention making sure I always have batterys for it)
I will alwyas have the nueros with me for music listening purposes, If the only extra thing I need to carry are little mini stereo mics in my pocket, then I could record any sound I hear,anywhere.
PLEASE PLEASE implemment this!
Reply author: EricMatz
Replied on: 05/13/2004 09:00:52 AM
Message:
I've got a guy building me a mic with an in-line preamp that will hopefully be decent. I had to go back to using MD as well because an external mic just didn't produce a good enough recording since there's no preamp. A battery powered mic helped a bit, but not enough.
Reply author: CUTR
Replied on: 05/13/2004 1:04:44 PM
Message:
In case you missed the post under features, I bought the Radio Shack amplified stereo mic with volume and equalizer ($34.95), use it at minimum volume connected to Neuros in line in with zero gain and get good sound from loud band practice. Quality is only a little better than mic, but having the ability to fine tune the recording level with volume control on Radio Shack device makes a huge difference. Still, I sure wish they had a mic-in as well as the line-in..
Reply author: Azraak
Replied on: 05/14/2004 04:41:44 AM
Message:
There is an enhancement request for a preamplified microphone port filed in Bugzilla here. Also, there are some other topics on the forums discussing microphones that containing an internal preamplifier, such as a product released by Archos; search around if you're interested. I know that many are already aware of this, but please, please remember that most powered mics, unless they specifically state they are amplified to line level, are condenser mics which require power to operate. It seems to me that there are, relatively speaking, not many mics that actually include an in-built preamplifier. I would like to source one so I can use my Neuros for stereo recording, but I haven't been able to find one in Australia (don't really know where to look) and don't particularly want to pay all the costs associated with importing one from the U.S. I could justify it for the Neuros, but can't quite say the same for a microphone. :-)
Hey! This is ... finally... my 100th forum posting! Wow! :-)
Jamie
Reply author: Grinhooks
Replied on: 05/26/2004 02:10:02 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by Stephenn
I am with you on this though, if someone had put in a good mic preamp and bias on a MP3 recorder, I would get one. But the market for something like that is pretty small.
I too am a musician, and I'm looking for a modern replacement for my minidisk recorder to record my band's performances and rehearsals, and my private lessons & night classes. I'm sick of the dropouts due to media problems, and REALLY cranky about Sony's "protection" of artist's rights (the music is recorded digitally, stored digitally, there's even a USB jack, but I can only get my music back out of it in analog at 1x speed from the headphone jack!) when I *am* the artist! Gimme my music! grrr!
Anyway, I've got the MZ-N707 recorder and ECM-MS907 stereo mic. The mic has its own AA battery. I'd really REALLY like to use the Neuros with my existing mic for all my recording needs, preferably to .WAV format so it can be easily edited later. I'd buy that sucka right NOW, and according to conversations I've had with other musicians, they too want a reasonably-priced modern alternative to their tired old cassette recorders. I know we're not talking about mobile studio quality here, don't care - if it can record in stereo at all, it'd kick the tail off a cassette. Please keep us artists & students in mind, and give us a mic jack & gain control features (manual & auto).
Reply author: jbeale
Replied on: 05/26/2004 2:58:19 PM
Message:
Speaking as a circuit designer, it is simple to add a medium to low quality mic preamp (if you have any board space left :-). Many consumer video cameras, for example have mic inputs, but not usually really "high fidelity". A high-quality mic preamp is not simple to design into a digital environment: because mic-level is so low (microvolts to millivolts) and the human ear is so sensitive, you must take extensive measures to shield the noisy digital signals from the mic-level input. In my experience, high-quality mic preamps are not often found on compact, inexpensive mass-market products. Sony's minidiscs with mic input are not bad, but Sony's video cameras are much worse.
It is very impressive that Echo Audio Mia soundcard (24/96) got the performance they did at the price http://audio.rightmark.org/test/echo-mia.html but from the outset their board design could be focused on that kind of performance, and they were able to leverage design from other, higher-priced products, and a PC card has acres of circuit board real estate to use, relative to a pocket device, and it doesn't have a mic-level input.
My guess is if you wanted a clean mic preamp in a Neuros the entire system would have to be designed ground-up with that goal in mind, so you can segregate the more noisy circuits away from the input. But the goals of compact size, low price, (and judging from the forums, users impatient with design cycle times :-) push you away from that.
Reply author: Schwilly
Replied on: 05/26/2004 4:48:01 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by Grinhooksquote:
Originally posted by Stephenn
I am with you on this though, if someone had put in a good mic preamp and bias on a MP3 recorder, I would get one. But the market for something like that is pretty small.
I too am a musician, and I'm looking for a modern replacement for my minidisk recorder to record my band's performances and rehearsals, and my private lessons & night classes. I'm sick of the dropouts due to media problems, and REALLY cranky about Sony's "protection" of artist's rights (the music is recorded digitally, stored digitally, there's even a USB jack, but I can only get my music back out of it in analog at 1x speed from the headphone jack!) when I *am* the artist! Gimme my music! grrr!
It's called DAT. Before HDD recorders it was the only way to record uncompressed wavs digitally with portable units.
quote:
Originally posted by Grinhooks
Anyway, I've got the MZ-N707 recorder and ECM-MS907 stereo mic. The mic has its own AA battery. I'd really REALLY like to use the Neuros with my existing mic for all my recording needs, preferably to .WAV format so it can be easily edited later. I'd buy that sucka right NOW, and according to conversations I've had with other musicians, they too want a reasonably-priced modern alternative to their tired old cassette recorders. I know we're not talking about mobile studio quality here, don't care - if it can record in stereo at all, it'd kick the tail off a cassette. Please keep us artists & students in mind, and give us a mic jack & gain control features (manual & auto).
The current Neuros would be fine for your needs. You can add gain over the line input which should be sufficient for the 907 if you are close to your recording source (your band). Mic-inputs on Consumer products are bad news. You probably know this to be true with your current MD. It is prone to distortion and overall suckage. If you really want a mic preamp, then by an external one. I can recommend some medicore to great preamps, anything is better than a Mic-in on an MD, even a DAT.
Also, the most important part of any recording rig (imho, of course) are the microphone(s). A $200 stereo set of microphones will make your recordings immediately better. But I can see your desire to get out of the MD world. :-P
stealth or die
Reply author: Grinhooks
Replied on: 05/28/2004 12:55:21 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by Schwillyquote:
It's called DAT. Before HDD recorders it was the only way to record uncompressed wavs digitally with portable units.
Well if it WAS the way BEFORE HDD recorders, but now we HAVE HDD recorders, and that's what I'm asking about, then what's the current technology (or at least a couple years old) to move into?quote:
The current Neuros would be fine for your needs. You can add gain over the line input which should be sufficient for the 907 if you are close to your recording source (your band). Mic-inputs on Consumer products are bad news. You probably know this to be true with your current MD. It is prone to distortion and overall suckage. If you really want a mic preamp, then by an external one. I can recommend some medicore to great preamps, anything is better than a Mic-in on an MD, even a DAT.
I'm not sure I understand your response here. The Neuros will, or will not, work properly with my 907 mic? I think you're saying that I can get a clear (but weak) signal with the mic alone, but would be better off with an external preamp. And as long as we're on the subject of preamps, yes please do suggest some specifics.
[quote]
Also, the most important part of any recording rig (imho, of course) are the microphone(s). A $200 stereo set of microphones will make your recordings immediately better. But I can see your desire to get out of the MD world. :-P
Hey, I'm just a musician - if I had the money and will to do this right, I'd go hawg-wild with a hot laptop, a snake, a buncha individual mics, etc. But for my utility usage, there's not enough left of my ears to care. I just want a modern cassette, not a mobile studio. The Neuros looks like it'd do that (and a bunch of other cool stuff), I'm just making sure. But someone will be curious, what mics did you have in mind? Thanks.
Reply author: CUTR
Replied on: 05/28/2004 9:16:13 PM
Message:
Grinhooks, I see you are new so I repeat previous note that like you, I've been searching for a low cost way to improve mic recording of our band. The built-in mic is "portable cassette" quality. The biggest problem which I think they will improve soon is that the mic on has 2 gain setting...zero and too much. The line-in has multiple gain settings, but as you've heard, needs a preamplified mic. These seem to be either really cheap (and poor quality) or too expensive for just fooling around with the band. I purchased the Radio shack Stereo, with equalizer and adjustable volume amplified mic (about $30) and it works fine send at about zero additional volume.
People have mentioned but no one has yet tried the ARCHOS amplified Mic or any others that have been mentioned(in the inexpensive category). Bottom line, the on-board mic is usless at the high gain setting and low volume but ok at the zero gain setting and I'm pleased with the improvement with the Radio Shack gizmo plugged into the line-in wiht its multiple settings.
Reply author: Schwilly
Replied on: 05/28/2004 9:43:32 PM
Message:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=search&item;=MM-ABUD&type;=store
stealth or die
Reply author: Grinhooks
Replied on: 05/29/2004 6:17:02 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by CUTR
Grinhooks, I see you are new so I repeat previous note that like you, I've been searching for a low cost way to improve mic recording of our band... I purchased the Radio shack Stereo, with equalizer and adjustable volume amplified mic (about $30) and it works fine send at about zero additional volume...
Bottom line, the on-board mic is usless at the high gain setting and low volume but ok at the zero gain setting...
Thank you CUTR. If the gain can be altered by firmware programming (that is, if the firmware doesn't just control a switch) then that'd be a cool improvement. I still think that a mic-level stereo jack & internal preamp, even if clearly marked as "mid-fi" in the owner's manual, would be very handy. I don't need super-fi recordings of my rehearsals and lessons, I just don't want it to sound like a Maestro Fuzztone. (winks to the other old-schoolers) I carry my current recording rig in an old clarinet case, and I like that.
Schwilly, thanx too for your response. I can see that if I went with the $99 preamp, the $54.99 binaural mics, adapters, power sources, etc I would get a much better recording.
If this problem is actually caused by inferior mic-power technology, can't we convince mic makers to improve? That is, if they don't get proper peak-to-peak voltage off a single AA cell, how about suggesting they design around a higher voltage cell, or multiple cells? Seems to me if it really was a mic problem, someone would've sounded the alarm and built more capable mics. Or maybe they do, and I just bought the wrong mic... sigh... Could some manufacturer please make all this simpler and less tangled?
Could Neuros do something in a backpack? Or, if it's really a space-vs.-noise battle, maybe Neuros (or a hip 3rd party) could assemble proper gear into a small Pelican case, with a handy dock for a Neuros, a bit of storage, AC or battery power...?
Anyway, Neuros has enough features for other uses to sell me on an entry-level model right now. If they make something that better addresses my main needs, I'll upgrade to that.
Reply author: jbeale
Replied on: 06/01/2004 4:55:52 PM
Message:
Looks like SoundProfessionals is offering Neuros accessories with live recording in mind, eg. a 10-hour battery, storage case, mic preamp:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=search&item;=SP-NEUROS-RB&type;=store
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=search&item;=OTTER-3000&type;=store
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=search&item;=SP-PREAMP&type;=store
I'd guess a "mid-fi" mic preamp should be do-able, but I certainly don't know anything about the Neuros design internals. My previous post doubting built-in "hi-fi" or broadcast-quality preamps was just based on my own experience. I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Meanwhile I do think the market lacks an affordable, good quality preamp, and/or mic with built-in or modular preamp.
Electrically, the best place for the preamp is right at the mic. For the earliest recording gear, that wasn't preferred since the vacuum tubes were big, hot and needed lots of power at high voltages... the standards developed around remote preamps and it stuck, even though technology has advanced a long way.
Reply author: ghavenga(at)riverview.net
Replied on: 06/10/2004 04:09:59 AM
Message:
I just bought a little Behringer 12 channel mixing board for $80 - which has stereo inputs/outputs, etc. - the line output of that is fine for the Neuros.
I know this is added cost if you don't already have some mics, etc., but if I was going to use the Neuros for recording a band, I'd definitely do it that way.
Reply author: Schwilly
Replied on: 06/10/2004 09:39:36 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by ghavenga(at)riverview.net
I just bought a little Behringer 12 channel mixing board for $80 - which has stereo inputs/outputs, etc. - the line output of that is fine for the Neuros.
I know this is added cost if you don't already have some mics, etc., but if I was going to use the Neuros for recording a band, I'd definitely do it that way.
any preamp is excellent for use with mics and a neuros, the options in quality and prices are pretty limitless
stealth or die
Reply author: Grinhooks
Replied on: 06/11/2004 11:13:25 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by ghavenga(at)riverview.net
I just bought a little Behringer 12 channel mixing board for $80 - which has stereo inputs/outputs, etc. - the line output of that is fine for the Neuros.
Yes, a preamp/mixer is the way to "do it right". It does give up a lot of portability. I have been using a little U-shaped napkin stand turned upside-down, putting the MD recorder underneath and the mic on top; took up about as much tabletop as a bottle of beer. I happen to own a Peavey mixer that is about the size of a hardcover book, and it does happen to be capable of running on internal battery power (big plus!) but using it and the "proper" mics would crowd & clutter a small bar table. It's also overkill for simply a way to turn up the microphones, but (sigh) it seems like no matter where you go, there you are.
I've got what I need but it's not yet what I want. I do still hope that Neuros or someone will put the (admittedly mid-fi) mic preamp into the unit, still leaving open a true line-in for hi-fi use and a simple built-in mic for basic use. That seems like a small step that would cover all gripes, and make for a universally useful gizmo. At the very least it'd make folks in this forum look for something else to grumble about! *chuckle*
Reply author: Schwilly
Replied on: 06/11/2004 11:17:34 AM
Message:
there are great preamps out there that will fit in the palm of your hand and will not reduce the portability much.
stealth or die
Reply author: sweetbus
Replied on: 01/10/2005 10:57:13 AM
Message:
has anyone tried this:
http://www.hotmp3gear.com/Microphone.htm
It looks kinda cheaply made to me but it might be worth testing out.
Reply author: fretless6
Replied on: 02/08/2005 1:16:48 PM
Message:
I too am a musician that bought this unit to replace a MD for recording rehersals and shows.
I had an Audio Technica stereo condensor that provided good quality through the MD mic input, but the signal was far to quiet to be useful with the Neuros.
I ended up with hearing about this http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category;=3281&item;=5749134565 preamp through another poster on this board. I figured it was a lot cheaper than anything from sound pros, so I gave it a shot.
I ordered the one that comes with a stereo mic and I have had great results with the pre-amp, and not great results with the mic.
The church audio mics will only come in through the right channel, but the Audiotechnica mic works perfectly.
I suspected a cableing problem, and took it into the electral engineer at work for help. after 2 hrs of diagnostics on the cables, mics, and pre-amp, we were stumped.
I'm a little bummed that the Church Audio mics didn't work properly, but am gettting great results with the Audio Technica mic and the Church Audio preamp.
The 44.1kHz .wav absolutely blows the MD quality out of the water.
There are still some hitches to be worked out (for example the Neuros HD can't be on a hard surface or the recording skips due to vibration) , but I think it will ultimately be a far better setup.
good luck.
Edit: I also tried a different stereo mic from sound pros that used to use with my MD setup, and produced the same results, no left channel. Switching the individual Church mics indicated that there was no problem with the mics, and a DVM/circuit continuity tester showed no problems with the cables, but in the end, the only setup that gave me stereo was the AT stereo condensor. Chruch has offered to check out and replace any problematic components free of charge, which I will take them up on should further testing indicate the necessity.
I still don't know what the problem was ( strongly suspect a bad input in the neuros, but that doesn't fit all the symptoms!), just what actually works provided so long as the NII doesn't crash when I start recording
This setup had great potential, but I'm about one lost performance recording from going back to my MD setup.
Reply author: HALKAR
Replied on: 02/08/2005 2:16:08 PM
Message:
If I could ask for a single improvement to Neuros, the addition of a mic. preamp would be it.
Carrying around a separate preamp is not always the best solution. Sometimes, stealth and simplicity override sound quality. Having to worry about two separate batteries dying is a pain. Having to deal with the additional bulk is a pain.
All I want is a high quality mic. input with amplification and plug in power like the ones on sharp minidisc units.
Reply author: Matthias Halibrand
Replied on: 03/26/2005 05:18:42 AM
Message:
That's customer care! Church, if I should ever need a mic and I'm around Canada, you will have one customer more! 
Matthias
Liebe und Frieden ...
Reply author: arth
Replied on: 04/17/2005 9:03:53 PM
Message:
Hi,
I too vote for a mic input! I am checking out the Neuros, Archos, iRiver, etc. for use in recording meetings, using a mic preamp/mixer (such as from Rolls.com or maybe Church Audio). With a 20GB or more HDD I'll never have to worry about changing tapes or MDs, and I can just dump everything to my computer & edit into CD-length segments, and burn all I want. Oh a setup like this would have saved me so many hours over the years!!!
A few questions as I have never used a Neuros:
- Does it record from the line-in with automatic volume control or a fixed volume level? In other words, will the Neuros hike up the gain in quiet moments? Is this adjustable?
- Any way to tell if I'm overmodulating? Will listening to the headphones while recording give me an idea of the recorded quality/overmodulation, etc.
- What's the real world battery life for recording in both MP3 and WAV modes, from your experience? What warning will it give before the battery runs out?
- Also, for this sort of usage, which of the HDD voice-capable recorders is best, worst, easiest, etc? Neuros? Archos? iRiver, Any others? Is any one easier to use, quicker to setup for recording, more reliable, better quality?
Your thoughts and experience are greatly appreciated!!!
Reply author: clibgold
Replied on: 06/23/2005 10:36:57 AM
Message:
Been away from the forum a bit - I see that Neuros II has been discontinued.
Looks like the III will have a mic input - is this correct?
Can't wait... ;-)
CG
Reply author: billybob77036(at)yahoo.com
Replied on: 07/18/2005 5:45:48 PM
Message:
Looks like my next decision for what I want will be between the N3 and the gizmo in the following link.
http://www.dapreview.net/comment.php?comment.news.1405
The NII was great for the time, but now recording is a huge part that so many seem to be missing out on, and it looks like N3 has great possibalities, that M-Audio thing has it down pat.
Reply author: Wolfgan
Replied on: 08/22/2005 1:39:19 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by clibgold
Been away from the forum a bit - I see that Neuros II has been discontinued.
Looks like the III will have a mic input - is this correct?
Can't wait... ;-) CG
I was doing a little research on portable recorders / players, and I like the idea of the N3 having a built-in mic preamp. But, will be also usable as a line-in input?
I mean, if I have the ability to hook up to a soundboard monitor, will I be able to interface directly to the Neuros 3?
Thanks, Wolfgan.
Reply author: Ex-Navy
Replied on: 03/22/2006 8:21:54 PM
Message:
There is alot out there for mic preamps,
from another forum (R2 recorder)
Manibloke suggests:
Made by Kemo, http://www.kemo-electronic.de their part no M040
http://www.kemo-electronic.de/en/module/m040/index.htm
Sgelo suggests:
http://www.supercircuits.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID;=4123&HS;=1
I have found Minidisco.com to have some excellent products:
http://www.minidisco.com/mics.html
Designing any portable equipment, one must consider power requirements
Sometimes adding a small item such as a preamp can cut the
operating time in half for a portable device.
The heat is on to create high amp hour rated batteries in compact
sizes.
Some great suggestions in this forum!!!
Ex-Navy
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