The Perpetual NSM Source Thread
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Topic URL: http://www.neurosaudio.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2036
Printed on: 03/24/2006
Topic:
Topic author: Cool4u2view
Subject: The Perpetual NSM Source Thread
Posted on: 12/15/2003 09:58:41 AM
Message:quote:
Originally posted by EricG
The NSM Source has now been posted. It can be found on http://open.neurosaudio.com.
Regards,
Eric
As many of you probably now know the NSM source code has been released. To compile follow the directions and unless this changes in the near future you need NSM 1.38 or above installed for the required registered libraries.
Have fun 
-Jeff
Replies:
Reply author: EricG
Replied on: 12/15/2003 10:46:30 AM
Message:
Sorry guys, but we have an issue with the code with one of the vendors. I am trying to get the issue resolved by communicating with all those involved.
What apparently has happened is that some code from one of our HiSi vendors was included when it was not supposed to be. I am checking with the developers and will have it back up as soon as the issue is corrected.
Please don't shoot the webadmin. 
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 12/15/2003 4:14:55 PM
Message:
Whew glad I downloaded it when I could... and still have a local copy...
-Jeff
Reply author: Craig
Replied on: 12/15/2003 9:22:50 PM
Message:
Likewise. But tell us which code that was and we'll delete it.
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 12/15/2003 9:30:35 PM
Message:
sure we will...
-Jeff
Reply author: EricG
Replied on: 12/16/2003 07:48:23 AM
Message:
Okay. The source is back up over at http://open.neurosaudio.com.
Everything has been approved, so there should be no further issues.
I have also made this topic sticky so that all source code discussions can be kept in here.
As for those of you that got the "non-approved" code, I would suggest you download the new code, because you may actually have problems with the old code due to some code being only partially removed.
Reply author: toohot4love
Replied on: 12/16/2003 1:57:43 PM
Message:
so geez it's been like almost two days. where's the new version of NSM? What do you opensource programmers do all day, play Quake and eat pizza? yeesh.
!! omg blog !! http://www.vocis.com/frank
Reply author: Craig
Replied on: 12/16/2003 2:30:10 PM
Message:
Hey, what do you expect? Not everyone can afford Visual Studio or has friends working for people with full MSDN subscriptions. I would like to see how it fares compiling under Mono though.
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 12/16/2003 2:39:48 PM
Message:
I've compiled it fine with Visual Studio 2002, I haven't had time to install 2003 on this machine. I will probably do it in a few hours. My girlfriends laptop has 2003 which I could also try. It should work though.
The very first thing I will try to do is see what the heck is making the music search and orphan search take sooo long.
-Jeff
Reply author: Sean Starkey
Replied on: 12/16/2003 5:52:05 PM
Message:
Jeff, I have a suspicion about the rebuild/find orphans time problems. I think NSM deletes the original (orphan) and then copies the whole file again. Here is what I observed about 1-2 months ago...
I was fixing a bug in NDBM where files with extended ASCII in the file name (not in the tags, the file name) were located on the Neuros and caused a crash during rebuild. (This condition would only occur if the user copied the file over manually, then rebuilt.) I tested NSM and Positron to see what they did in this situation.
NSM (seemingly) renames the file with underscores in the extended ASCII. Does NSM rename the file, or does NSM copy the file to the Neuros again (with the new adjusted filename?) If this copying is happening, then it would cause the long delays that is witnessed.
Positron puts an incorrect entry in the database, causing this file to never be able to play. Positron's rebuild is very fast.
NDBM rejects the file, but logs the fact.
I might have time to dig into the NSM code and figure out what is wrong, but this might help someone get started.
Sean Starkey - Project Manager for Neuros Database Manipulator - http://neurosdbm.sourceforge.net
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 12/16/2003 5:56:29 PM
Message:
Then I wonder what it does if the machine doesn't contain a listing for the orphan file in question... I have been installing VS 2003 on my primary machine for the last hour (it's almost done).
-Jeff
Reply author: the_emo_kid
Replied on: 12/16/2003 6:32:04 PM
Message:
I feel so dated with my VS 6.0 =/
Reply author: tobiasly
Replied on: 12/17/2003 2:35:33 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by Cool4u2view
I've compiled it fine with Visual Studio 2002, I haven't had time to install 2003 on this machine. I will probably do it in a few hours. My girlfriends laptop has 2003 which I could also try.
Your girlfriend has a newer version of Visual Studio than you do, and you publicly admit this? :)
**** Neuros Customer Number 2590 :: 20GB/128MB Bundle
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 12/17/2003 3:04:06 PM
Message:
Well, I did just install it on my PC also.
-Jeff
Reply author: cjastram
Replied on: 12/17/2003 4:56:55 PM
Message:
Thanks guys. Thank you very very much.
While a lot of people don't have Vis Studio (I happen to have legit access at work), that's fine. There are a lot of people who find it, have access to cheap edu versions, can use it after-hours at work (like me) etcetera.
Thanks.
Did I mention thanks?
Chris
google.for@cej36845913.now
Reply author: mike.schulte(at)cshore.com
Replied on: 12/17/2003 9:38:07 PM
Message:
im working on compiling in whidbey (longhorn visual studio) but i dont think its gonna work rite.
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 12/17/2003 9:41:57 PM
Message:
It should be backward compatible as long as you follow the directions to the letter after converting each solution to the new version.
-Jeff
Reply author: mike.schulte(at)cshore.com
Replied on: 12/17/2003 9:53:11 PM
Message:
yeah once its released in beta i think whidbey will be backwards compatible but as of now its not even in beta... im just screwin around on it to see what i can do....ill let ya know if it works
Reply author: K-Man666
Replied on: 12/20/2003 08:08:26 AM
Message:
Gonna get VS.NET on monday, so I WILL LEARN programming to get the best out of my neuros
Kaspar (The German Guy)
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 12/20/2003 08:20:47 AM
Message:
Get the education version if you can, it is at most $100 (US). At my school I bought VS .NET 2003 for like $5-$15 (and it is legal :)
-Jeff
Reply author: K-Man666
Replied on: 12/20/2003 12:01:23 PM
Message:
That's exactly what I ordered, over my school, gonna get it for about 15€(~18$)
Kaspar (The German Guy)
Reply author: ghavenga(at)riverview.net
Replied on: 12/27/2003 04:24:05 AM
Message:
I'm getting this message:
The application for project 'f:\.....\NSM Open Source\APIError\APIError.csproj' is not installed.
Make sure the application for the project type (.csproj) is installed.
Is this stuff written in C#???
DON'T DRINK THE KOOL-AID!!!
Good Grief, good thing I brought my MSDN disks home.
Sheesh!
G
Redundency, hell we don't even have any Dundency!
Reply author: K-Man666
Replied on: 12/27/2003 06:22:46 AM
Message:
I think it is written in C#, thats what we need the .NET framework for.
If yoou're on Linux/Unix/Windows and don't want to install the .net SDK, try mono.
Kaspar (The German Guy)
Reply author: JoeBorn
Replied on: 12/27/2003 12:01:49 PM
Message:
Just to let everyone know, we're in the process of setting up a bugzilla server on open.neurosaudio.com and this project should be posted to sourceforge shortly. Don't blame us for delays at this point, it's in the community's hands now!
jborn@neurosaudio.com
Reply author: K-Man666
Replied on: 12/27/2003 1:02:18 PM
Message:
Why was the MyFi code removed from NSM, as far as I know MusicBrainz, the software from retable MyFi uses is OpenSource ?
If you use another server,it should be no problem to change to that one as it uses the same technology.
Kaspar (The German Guy)
Reply author: ghavenga(at)riverview.net
Replied on: 12/27/2003 6:04:02 PM
Message:
As regards C#, I wonder what the compelling reason was for choosing that over straight C++ - especially for something that was intended to be open source.
I work on a product that is supported on Mac, Linux, and of course, Windows. We have a large amount of OS/GUI independent code, with small back-ends for each OS/Platform. We've stuck to C/C++ just so we can do this without a lot of hassle.
I guess I could see writing the front-end stuff in something that was platform dependent, the easier to maintain, the better, but I would have expected the vast majority to be done in something more portable.
The other reason for sticking to C/C++ is that the vast majority of people who would want to modify/enhance the code already know it. Even MFC is a known quantity (if we were going oddball, I'd prefer C++ Builder, which is now cross platform, but I'm not going to press that point as I'm tired of tilting at windmills).
Anyhow, back to the main problem - I still haven't been able to do a full build - but then I've only tried to do a full build once since getting C# on my system. If I can't resolve the remaining errors, I suppose post again.
G
Redundency, hell we don't even have any Dundency!
Reply author: ghavenga(at)riverview.net
Replied on: 12/27/2003 6:06:37 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by K-Man666
Why was the MyFi code removed from NSM, as far as I know MusicBrainz, the software from retable MyFi uses is OpenSource ?
If you use another server,it should be no problem to change to that one as it uses the same technology.
Kaspar (The German Guy)
Did you mean HiSi?
Greg
Redundency, hell we don't even have any Dundency!
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 12/27/2003 7:20:10 PM
Message:
Yes he means HiSi. Remember that just because a project uses open source code does not change the fact that the enveloping code may be proprietary.
-Jeff
Reply author: demonbane
Replied on: 12/27/2003 8:12:59 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by Cool4u2view
Yes he means HiSi. Remember that just because a project uses open source code does not change the fact that the enveloping code may be proprietary.
-Jeff
Assuming that HiSi does, in fact, work through the MusicBrainz system, it would certainly seem that it CAN be open sourced. According to the MusicBrainz website, the MB Tagger, their program for tagging MP3's by doing what HiSi does to find the name of a song, is released under the GPL. That would mean that the code can't use any proprietary libraries either. As such, you would IMAGINE that the HiSi code could be released. Either case, worst case scenario, someone can just port the code from MB Tagger and integrate it into the NSM source. (*** Warning! Shameless plug!!! ***) Or, better yet, port that code into NDBM. :)
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 12/27/2003 8:27:41 PM
Message:
There is no reason why someone can't integrate anything they want into NSM, now that it is open source. It is now time for people to take power into their own hands instead of sitting back. The community can now work together to make NSM into the application it should be, with all the features everyone wants.
-Jeff
Reply author: artur83
Replied on: 12/27/2003 10:07:04 PM
Message:
[/quote]
I'm actually waiting for the Neuros OS, the firmware to get Open source. I guess a lot of people would want that.
Or at least have a 'shell' type approach(i guess that's how u'd call it, or 'embeded') just like those TI calculators. So we can write our own programs and just ADD them to the current FW version. The 'shelled' mini-programs would have to be written on the PC, and not on the Neuros itself (not like the old TI (i.e. TI80))
I'm dying to get this feature.(although it's my 4rth day i think using the Neuros):)
Reply author: K-Man666
Replied on: 12/30/2003 2:30:09 PM
Message:
Of course I meant HiSi.
The bad thing is that I have hardly any programming skills (except bad old VB), so I can't port the MusicBrainz code in myself. Anyway I'd like to find out more about how HiSi works and if it uses the MB database.
To Joe / anyone else from the neuros team: Couldn't there be a NSM, closed source plugin to keep the HiSi function working with the opened code ?
To arthur83: Search the forums for sth about fiemware/scripting language.
To demonbane / starkey: How long will it take until NDBM and NSM can use the same databases ? This would make it much easier to usethem. If NDBM would contain access to ALL neuros functions there would be no need to workwith C# anymore.
Kaspar (The German Guy)
Reply author: kronin
Replied on: 12/30/2003 4:33:00 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by K-Man666
To demonbane / starkey: How long will it take until NDBM and NSM can use the same databases ? This would make it much easier to usethem. If NDBM would contain access to ALL neuros functions there would be no need to workwith C# anymore.
I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I know part of the answer, so here it is. The problem is that NSM _never_ reads the database off the Neuros, it assumes what it knew when it last created the database is still correct. NeurosDBM always reads the database off the Neuros, that's why you can use it on multiple computers without any problems. If someone wrote a piece to NSM where it actually pulls the database off the Neuros, then they could work together nicely. I think I remember Starkey saying something about NeurosDBM not being able to read NSM-created databases, but that was awhile ago so I'm not sure if it's still true. I have never used NSM, so I can't test this.
Order: 2469 & 4774
Reply author: demonbane
Replied on: 12/30/2003 4:44:33 PM
Message:
We certainly COULD make NDBM read NSM's databases, but as kronin pointed out, there's no real reason to do so. Since NSM keeps all of its information on the PC as opposed to the Neuros itself, there's no reason for us to touch the NSM database. If NSM gets updated so that it stores the database on the Neuros itself, then we could certainly look at implementing it. (Or NSM could look into implementing our open XML database... :)
Reply author: jahf(at)yahoo.com
Replied on: 12/31/2003 3:07:31 PM
Message:
Calling All Hands!
Long story short, I'm the one that is currently holding things up for getting a better way to maintain the open sourced NSM since I'm the one who volunteered to set up the SourceForge site and configure the Bugzilla server.
Funny thing is this ... I don't currently have Windows on any machines, much less Visual Studio .NET. I'll have a Win2K partition shortly (my machine died this month, which combined with back surgery and relatives visiting perhaps explains my delays), but even then probably won't have a Microsoft .NET compiler.
So, my role is primarily one of organizing a set of areas (SourceForge, BugZilla, etc) to make this possible to help DI since I have some experience with these kinds of things and it allows DI to stay reasonably "hands-off".
That means I would REALLY like a couple of people to volunteer to make sure that any new code that is contributed gets at -LEAST- a quick looking at and a compile to make sure it works. Plus, it would be good to have more than just one person with access to each of these sites as when I go back to work I'll have some weeks where I'm travelling.
So ... if you want to volunteer to be a compile master (in other words you have the tools in hand, have a few hours a week to commit to this, and have successfully compiled the code already) please drop me a line at jahf-at-yahoo.com.
/Geoff (getting back in action)
Reply author: Sean Starkey
Replied on: 12/31/2003 5:08:20 PM
Message:
Compiling before committing is for wimps.
Sean Starkey - Project Manager for Neuros Database Manipulator - http://neurosdbm.sourceforge.net
Reply author: demonbane
Replied on: 01/01/2004 03:14:32 AM
Message:
In that case I'll just keep my mouth shut about how many compiles I did before committing the auto update code... ;)
And I suppose next you're going to tell us that you should always make a flowchart and write some pseudocode before you start coding? :)
Reply author: Sean Starkey
Replied on: 01/01/2004 11:51:47 AM
Message:
You've looked at my code Alex. Do you think I make flowcharts and psuedocode?
Actually since it takes about 8 seconds on my machine to build NDBM, I compile quite often too.
Sean Starkey - Project Manager for Neuros Database Manipulator - http://neurosdbm.sourceforge.net
Reply author: jjlupa(at)jamdata.net
Replied on: 01/05/2004 7:12:57 PM
Message:
Thanks a million! The zip (as pulled 1/5/04) compiles up fine with VS.NET 2003. I had no issues on a clean run either (though I haven't gotten into the grit yet).
Is there going to be something of a developer forum on sourceforge or something (rather than swimming through the perpetual NSM source thread)?
Reply author: ghavenga(at)riverview.net
Replied on: 01/05/2004 8:28:32 PM
Message:
I have a reference to OGGVORBISTAGLib that I cannot resolve. I've checked all the folders in the source zip file, but I can't find ogg anything.
I downloaded the ogg windows SDK, but there was nothing resembling the reference to OGGVORBISTAGLib.
Now what?
Redundency, hell we don't even have any Dundency!
Reply author: ghavenga(at)riverview.net
Replied on: 01/05/2004 9:04:28 PM
Message:
Ok, found the Ogg stuff, but can't resolve the WMPLib type or namespace.
What's that in?
I've tried re-adding the OCX and the interop.wmplib..., but nothing so far.
Oh, my kingdom for a simple makefile.
Redundency, hell we don't even have any Dundency!
Reply author: ghavenga(at)riverview.net
Replied on: 01/05/2004 9:22:31 PM
Message:
To answer my own question - apparently you must install NSM on your development machine and point the references there.
I have it building now.
Sheesh!
Greg
Redundency, hell we don't even have any Dundency!
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 01/05/2004 10:36:43 PM
Message:
Make sure to read the very first post in the thread
-Jeff
Reply author: ghavenga(at)riverview.net
Replied on: 01/05/2004 10:47:27 PM
Message:
Uh, gee, I guess I got so excited by the first part of that first message that I missed the second part...
;)
Greg
Redundency, hell we don't even have any Dundency!
Reply author: EricMatz
Replied on: 01/06/2004 12:52:34 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by jjlupa(at)jamdata.net
Thanks a million! The zip (as pulled 1/5/04) compiles up fine with VS.NET 2003.
I too had no big issues with 2003. Had to fix one other reference (ASTAudioFile.dll) that the readme didn't mention. Had some trouble adding the OggVobis reference, but registering the DLL first solved that problem.
Now if I only had a Neuros to really check it out!
Reading code gets a bit boring...Whoever decided on C#, you RULE!
Reply author: jahf(at)yahoo.com
Replied on: 01/06/2004 2:29:18 PM
Message:
Yes, there will be forums and a separate site to track the open source NSM.
I have one volunteer so far to help make sure that submissions compile properly, and they can only dedicate random time to the project. I'd really like one more person who has the tools and has successfully compiled. Any takers? If not, I have a coupla names from Kathryn who she swears will have the experience needed, but I'd rather get volunteer staff than recruitments :)
Jahf at Yahoo.com
building an external antenna thread: http://www.neurosaudio.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1460
Reply author: Sean Starkey
Replied on: 01/06/2004 3:19:05 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by jahf(at)yahoo.com
Yes, there will be forums and a separate site to track the open source NSM.
I have one volunteer so far to help make sure that submissions compile properly, and they can only dedicate random time to the project. I'd really like one more person who has the tools and has successfully compiled. Any takers? If not, I have a coupla names from Kathryn who she swears will have the experience needed, but I'd rather get volunteer staff than recruitments :)
Jahf at Yahoo.com
building an external antenna thread: http://www.neurosaudio.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1460
I'll try to get it compiled for you (I have the tools.) Assuming I can compile it
I'll be the compile "stuckee".Sean Starkey - Project Manager for Neuros Database Manipulator - http://neurosdbm.sourceforge.net
Reply author: ghavenga(at)riverview.net
Replied on: 01/06/2004 10:22:09 PM
Message:
I could help with this some too, now that I have it compiling.
I wish I would have noticed the "gotta have NSM installed" deal, but I rarely develop on my "test" machines, which is where NSM lives.
Too bad I don't have a spare Neuros to try stuff out on
I have a neat program called Beyond Compare, which is a really great DIFF program that's great for tracking changes.
Greg
Redundency, hell we don't even have any Dundency!
Reply author: ghavenga(at)riverview.net
Replied on: 01/07/2004 03:33:33 AM
Message:
http://www.un4seen.com/
I just incorporated this library into a MP3 jukebox app
I wrote. VERY NICE. My app contains a HTML server, which
allows me to control my audio distribution amp and also
queue up and play MP3s, etc. from any browser on my network
(most importantly, my PPC via WiFi). I wonder if this has
any place in NSM...
Also, I went to iTunes and was bummed that everything is in
AAC format - no iTunes for my Neuros... However, it appears
DVD John has come to the rescue...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/34712.html
http://developers.videolan.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/vlc/modules/demux/mp4/?cvsroot=VideoLAN
Now, all we have to do is get MP4 support in NSM & the Neuros!
Greg
Reply author: Trig
Replied on: 01/09/2004 8:17:06 PM
Message:
I sure wish NSM wasn't a .NET Framework 1.0 app so that I could actually contribute. The only place I still have VS.NET 2002 installed on my laptop at work and the bank tends to frown upon using work equipment for non-work related activities. I guess I could always download VS.NET 2002 from MSDN Subscriber downloads because I sure as heck don't know where my 2002 cd's are.
Is there any talk about moving it to 1.1 or would this be too much of an issue with users having to download the 1.1 dotnetfx in order to use any versions of NSM built with 1.1?
On a side note NSM successfully compiled & ran after converting the project and solution to 1.1 so we know it wouldn't be too much of an issue code-wise to migrate.
Customer # 4081
Reply author: Trig
Replied on: 01/09/2004 8:24:13 PM
Message:
Ahh, scratch my last post... It just occured to me that my MSDN Universal DVDs should have VS.NET 2002 on them so I'm in business.
In that case, how can I help? I'm mostly a VB.NET guy (I prefer VB.NET's Intellisense & background compiling/sytax checking over C#) but I'm just about as comfortable in C#.
Customer # 4081
Reply author: Trig
Replied on: 01/09/2004 8:26:14 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by ghavenga(at)riverview.net
I have a neat program called Beyond Compare, which is a really great DIFF program that's great for tracking changes.
I LOVE Beyond Compare. I use it to run a directory diff against our live intranet server and my development server at work when copying changes out... Such a timesaver, now all I have to do is convince the boss to buy it for me when the trial runs out.
Customer # 4081
Reply author: jjlupa(at)jamdata.net
Replied on: 01/12/2004 09:55:33 AM
Message:
What is the status on sourceforge/bugzilla?
Also, does anyone know how internal and external versions are going to source merge? I'd hate to waste time on bugs that have already been fixed.
Reply author: kborn(at)neurosaudio.com
Replied on: 01/15/2004 11:36:23 AM
Message:
I just wrote Jahf about it. We had a delay because the spam filter wouldn't let us log in, but that is now resolved. I would guess in a day or two it will be working.
Kathryn
Neuros Support
Reply author: K-Man666
Replied on: 02/17/2004 09:18:29 AM
Message:
So there shouldbe an update on the sf/bugzilla site now, right
Kaspar (The German Guy)
Reply author: kborn(at)neurosaudio.com
Replied on: 02/17/2004 09:34:47 AM
Message:
http://open.neurosaudio.com/bugzilla/
here ya go. Make sure you read the bug writing guidelines.
Kathryn
Neuros Support
Reply author: Marko
Replied on: 03/06/2004 3:08:50 PM
Message:
So when will the Neuros firmware software open up 
Is there any reason to not let people modify it and possibly improve it for you?
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 03/06/2004 9:52:47 PM
Message:
There are many issues with this, If you search the forums you can find many threads about this subject.
-Jeff
Reply author: neuros(at)badics.net
Replied on: 04/26/2004 10:31:54 PM
Message:
This thread seems almost dead. I also looked at the NSM opensource web page and it is even more outdated. (open.neurosaudio.com)
How many software developers does DI have? I see only bugs assigned to mgao. Is he the poor guy to fix everything for us?
No wonder NSM is so buggy...
Reply author: kborn(at)neurosaudio.com
Replied on: 05/04/2004 4:42:27 PM
Message:
Michael manages and assigns all the fixes.
K
Neuros Support
Reply author: kborn(at)neurosaudio.com
Replied on: 06/09/2004 12:30:44 PM
Message:
Hi All,
As you all know, at Neuros we have to be very careful to keep our priorities front of mind. We do the enhancements and fixes that will affect the most people to the greatest extent.
So when someone mentioned that we need to open the code for the latest NSM, sure, yes, of course I agree. But today I was talking with Joe on the train, and he said, "has anyone asked for it?" and I said, "Well, I think one person. And you know... we've had the code out for almost 6 months and nothing has really happened."
Now I know people will write back to me and say it's important to release the latest code version for the sake of the Neuros being open, and please know I understand that. But what I would be interested in knowing, at this time, is:
Who is actively working with the code, and really needs an updated version to keep working?
I'd also be interested to know who is plugging along with this, in general... besides Starkey? I'm not putting this in a negative light, but at one point I was supposed to be the liaison to the open source community, and I really don't have a sense of what is happening (or not happening), so it seemed time to check in.
K
Neuros Support
Reply author: jahf(at)yahoo.com
Replied on: 06/09/2004 1:55:28 PM
Message:
First, let me me say "I suck" ... I've had the ONSM site registered on Sourceforge forever but I haven't done anything with it.
Part of the reason I never got far was there didn't seem to be much demand, so let me float a related question based on K's ... IF there was a CVS/Sourceforge site would you do -more- with NSM?
There is one advantage to not having opened the sourceforge site ... DI knows exactly how many times NSM source was downloaded.
Last, I would suggest that given how well NeurosDBM has evolved and how many of us out here are non-Windows users (at least when we can be), that that is alot of why open sourced NSM hasn't taken off so much. I think the bigger juicier piece is an open firmware. I'm not going on a crusade about that (I recognize both IP issues -and- commercial compiler issues), just pointing out that I think that is where most hackers were hoping to see source code.
building an external antenna thread: http://www.neurosaudio.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1460
Reply author: kborn(at)neurosaudio.com
Replied on: 06/09/2004 2:10:21 PM
Message:
Couple things, we actually don't have data on how many downloads we get of anything. I remember way back we had a crisis and we wanted to know how many users had downloaded it, but we couldn't get the numbers.
Firmware code... it's a catch 22. It's so much harder to release fw code, business reasons, competitors, etc. And it's hard to program fw, it really it. To be do-able, it would need an heckuva a SDK, and that's a lot of time we would need to invest.
So the catch 22 is that we're not getting all that much response to opening the NSM code, and that doesn't encourage us to really be agressive on the firmware code.
I'm not shutting the door on anything, I'm just saying the current thinking on the issue.
K
Neuros Support
Reply author: jahf(at)yahoo.com
Replied on: 06/09/2004 2:30:25 PM
Message:
No log files from open.neurosaudio.com? A quick grep would show the downloads unless the log is messed up.
Anyway, definitely understood on the FW issues. I mentioned awhile back a compromise option that might make sense ... instead of publishing the entire firmware (though that would be good), create hooks in the firmware where additional items can be loaded.
The idea being basically to have a documented API (don't get scared by "API", it doesn't have to be huge) and a stub somewhere in the firmware that can access user binaries. A simple XI menu option could be used to invoke the stub, and then users could write games, playlist editors, etc.
Not as encompassing as the firmware, but it would definitely be useful while protecting DI from competitors stealing ideas from the firmware source.
There would still be a problem with the commercial compiler not being available. Not sure how to get around that (JAVA! oh, sorry, work mode popped up) but a couple of options come to mind around either having this being done in a scripting language (ugly) or seeing if there is a way to getting a submission-based automated compiler online (hard) or seeing if there is a free compiler that can target the DSP (there was mention of this but I don't know where it went).
Just to be a good citizen, I posted an RFE about this on Bugzilla http://open.neurosaudio.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=223
And hey, it's not like we're all going to start saying "Neuros blows" if we don't get this.
building an external antenna thread: http://www.neurosaudio.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1460
Reply author: ghavenga(at)riverview.net
Replied on: 06/10/2004 03:51:11 AM
Message:
I have downloaded the NSM code, and got my development system to compile it, but for me, the problem is that it's written in C# - I am fluent in C, C++, C++ Builder, Delphi, but not C#, and with my day job being writing Windows drivers and firmware, and also having a family, I don't have time to learn YAPL (yet another programming language).
Since Borland is being stupid about C++ in general, I DID try to use C# to do some test programs at work because we have MSDN, so why not use it, but found I could not call DeviceIoControl directly, so that just kinda blew chunks for me (I ended up doing my test prog in C++ Builder in no time).
I think it would be easier to get into NSM development if:
a) the database docs were updated to reflect the most
recent changes.
b) a list of desired mods/fixes was available (maybe they
are already in bugzilla?), that we as developers could pick
to work on. I would feel better about working on the code
and in a new language if I could start with something simple.
Also, in the GNU/Linux tradition, I would not release a binary for NSM without releasing the source at the same time. I have no interest in working on the code I have and then facing a merge from hell because I have to sync up to a new release that's a number of generations removed from what I was working on.
I think that if DI really wants to go open source, the NSM code and docs will simply live in a CVS/Subversion repository on sourceforge. DI can still exercise control in who they allow to post and what they allow to be checked back in, but keeping things in sync and freely available is definitely the way to go.
Also, it would be easier to keep up with DI's development because us outside developers could sync up more often.
Just my two cents...
Reply author: darren
Replied on: 06/10/2004 10:03:13 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by kborn(at)neurosaudio.com
I'd also be interested to know who is plugging along with this, in general... besides Starkey? I'm not putting this in a negative light, but at one point I was supposed to be the liaison to the open source community, and I really don't have a sense of what is happening (or not happening), so it seemed time to check in.
Are you asking who's plugging away at NSM or any open source project? If it's the latter, then I'm still working on Sorune. I'd like to see an updated spec and possibly a XIM function list. By that I mean, function 0x24 gives XIM menu "X" and function 0x25 gives XIM menu "Y".
Why didn't I start working on NSM? I don't know C# and don't care to learn any programming language that ties you to a single platform.
-Darren
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 06/11/2004 09:06:32 AM
Message:
C# doesn't tie you to a single platform see "mono".
-Jeff
Reply author: darren
Replied on: 06/11/2004 10:00:00 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by Cool4u2view
C# doesn't tie you to a single platform see "mono".
If NSM works with mono or the other project that does C# (can't remember it's name), that's fine. But if NSM is developed only on windows with .NET, it's more than likely that something isn't going to work with other platforms. As I haven't tried mono or the like, please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm speaking solely from past experience with Microsoft's J++. I guess I'm still bitter about learning that implementation of Java.
Reply author: kronin
Replied on: 06/11/2004 10:35:42 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by darren
If NSM works with mono or the other project that does C# (can't remember it's name), that's fine. But if NSM is developed only on windows with .NET, it's more than likely that something isn't going to work with other platforms. As I haven't tried mono or the like, please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm speaking solely from past experience with Microsoft's J++. I guess I'm still bitter about learning that implementation of Java.
From the Mono Beta 2 readme http://www.go-mono.com/archive/beta2/beta2.html:
not all the functionality is available, most importantly the following are not supported:
* COM support of any kind in Unix or Windows.
* EnterpriseServices is only a set of stub routines.
* Windows.Forms is only available as a preview, and it is not meant for production use.
* Code Access Security (CAS) is not supported: missing in the runtime and class libraries.
I'm not sure if NSM uses Windows.Forms or not. Has anyone tried getting NSM running in Mono?
Reply author: Chameleon
Replied on: 11/28/2004 6:40:06 PM
Message:
I've built much of NSM this afternoon in Fedora Core 3 Linux running Mono 1.0.4.
Built:
Supporting Components
- APIError
- NSMDataRecord
- NeurosMeter
- NSMMonitorIPC
- NSMAgent
NSM Synchronized
- Graphics (library)
- NSM API
- NSM Shared
- XML Schemas (library)
Not Built:
NSM Synchronized
- MP3ToWAVConverter
- NeurosDB
- NSM
- NSM Control
- NSM Data
I'm kind of stuck now on MP3ToWAVConverter because I need a reference that doesn't exist on my system:
- ASTAUDIOFILELib
Apparently I need NSM installed to get it, but that's not going to happen.
As for the NSM Control project, it wouldn't convert automatically, so I have to do it manually... There are probably some surprises awaiting within.
The others are referencing differences between VS.Net & MonoDevelop.
Overall it has gone very smoothly.
-- 'I switched to Vorbis and saved a bunch on my hard-disk space!'
Reply author: Chameleon
Replied on: 12/12/2004 12:56:27 AM
Message:
Well, I got a copy of the ASTAudioFileLib from Yono, but I can't add it to the project because I receive this error message:
quote:
ASTAudioFile.dll is not a valid .Net Assembly
bummer.
-- 'I switched to Vorbis and saved a bunch on my hard-disk space!'
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