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Skipping during playback

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Topic URL: http://www.neurosaudio.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3499
Printed on: 01/04/2007

Topic:

Topic author: kgf
Subject: Skipping during playback
Posted on: 05/03/2004 11:29:09 AM
Message:

Hi:

I'm using the next-to-the-latest firmware (waiting until neurosdbm can do the new artist->album thing before I go 2.14) and I am STILL encountering skips during playback.

They aren't as bad as they used to be, but they're maybe about a 1/2 second or so. Today in particular I seem to be having a lot..maybe I'm just noticing them more.

I notice in the readme for the 2.14 beta there is no mention of the skips, and it claims there are no outstanding issues. Am I the only one hearing these skips? They're quite annoying...it's like someone had bumped your CD player during playback (well, not that dramatic, but you get the idea).

Note, this is NOT the old broken-record skipping problem from several firmware revs ago...the skipping was happening DURING playback, seemingly at random even back then. It's not as bad as it was, but it still happens. Are there plans to finally fix this?

Replies:

Reply author: kronin
Replied on: 05/03/2004 11:45:43 AM
Message:

Are they happening during MP3 or Ogg playback? What bitrate or quality are your files encoded at?

Reply author: kgf
Replied on: 05/03/2004 12:03:18 PM
Message:

I should have mentioned this in my last post: it's all in Ogg playback (but I don't have any MP3s so I don't know if it's happening there). All my Ogg files are encoded -q5. It's not MyFi, this is all over the headphone jack.

The skips happen at random. If I replay the same song it won't skip in the same place (something that used to happen several revs ago when the skipping was common).

Reply author: kborn(at)neurosaudio.com
Replied on: 05/03/2004 12:10:06 PM
Message:

This is called "chriping", which is technically different than a chrip.

Sort of a high-pitched blip?

These are usually on high-encoded Oggs through MyFi. Is that the case with you?

K

Neuros Support

Reply author: kgf
Replied on: 05/03/2004 12:57:14 PM
Message:

Nope, there is no blip. It's not a chirp--I remember the chirps from the 1.x firmware days.

It's a skip. The song skips ahead probably 1/2 a second or so, literally like someone "bumped" a CD player. It happens anywhere in the song, beginning, middle or end. I haven't heard a blip since the 1.x firmware. :)

Like I said it used to be more dramatic in the earlier 2.x series. The skips were over a second, and they happened usually in the same places in the song. Now they're shorter, but completely random.

Reply author: webkid
Replied on: 05/03/2004 3:57:37 PM
Message:

How did you encode your Vorbis streams? What version encoder? Have you tried re-ripping any tracks? Are there any tracks specifically problematic?

Reply author: kgf
Replied on: 05/03/2004 7:22:49 PM
Message:

I encode them the same way I've always encoded them--with xiph.org's oggenc, version 1.0. None of my music is encoded with a pre-1.0 encoder.

oggenc -o %m -q 5 -a %a -l %d -t %n -N %t %w

(taken from my .grip file).

Reply author: kgf
Replied on: 05/03/2004 7:25:59 PM
Message:

Oh and to answer your other questions no, no particular track is problematic--it's random. If I replay a track that had a skip, the skip is no longer there. I don't see any point in re-encoding them since they're all done with a perfectly valid version of oggenc.

(And I'm not going to re-encode 3,000 tracks either...it took me WEEKS to encode my whole CD library before, I'm not planning on revisiting that.)

Reply author: xercist
Replied on: 05/03/2004 10:04:12 PM
Message:

I have the same problem. I also use vorbis q5, and firmware 2.13. I cannot figure out if there's any pattern to when it happens. I'm not sure exactly what's happening, but it sounds as if the playback is suddenly in a different position - not too far off, but enough to throw the beat off. Happens on average perhaps once in an album, but sometimes seems to happen more often.

Reply author: Azraak
Replied on: 05/04/2004 01:14:46 AM
Message:

I have this problem also, but I have not yet reported it for two reasons. Firstly, I've been too lazy to scour the forums to find this issue (it has been mentioned from time to time, but searching for skips tends to yield more about the broken record problem exhibited in earlier firmware). Secondly, I have not yet been able to figure out a way of reproducing the problem. It appears to be purely random. I thought perhaps it was when the hdd spun up or the like, but if I recall correctly, the hdd was not spun up when I checked just after any of these skips. The vast majority of my oggs are encoded at quality 4 and I am using the 1.0 Vorbis codec (i.e. 20020717) with CDex 1.51.

Jamie

Reply author: kgf
Replied on: 05/26/2004 1:42:22 PM
Message:

So can I assume the skipping problem is not considered a high priority? I find it hard to believe that only a small few of us are encountering it.

For what it's worth I'm still having these annoying skips even with the latest firmware (2.16). As far as I'm concerned this is the only thing that keeps me from saying my Neuros is "perfect" (but hey, 99% isn't bad either is it?)

Reply author: adam.williamson1(at)btinternet.com
Replied on: 05/26/2004 6:16:59 PM
Message:

same problem here, 100% ogg collection. exactly as kgf describes it. doesn't bother me overmuch, but would be nice if it was fixed.

adamw

Reply author: darren
Replied on: 05/26/2004 9:58:18 PM
Message:

Happens to me too. I encoded all my CDs recently with cdex 1.51 using 1.0.1 at q5. Of course, I also find these skips annoying. They seem to happen more frequently with q6 encoded oggs, so I figure it is just the 2.x way of handling oggs. Instead of the high pitched chirp/skip of the 1.x firmware, now you get a silent skip. I can tolerate the silent skip much better than the chirp/skip. I almost went back to MP3s because of that chirping.

Reply author: kgf
Replied on: 05/28/2004 07:41:11 AM
Message:

Interesting. I've finally got a reproducable "skip". I just got my new Starseeds CD yesterday and encoded it -q5 (as I usually do). The first track, "Starman", skips every time in the same place, within the first 10-15 seconds of play.

It is not a problem with the Ogg file since it plays fine on my PC.

Reply author: Chameleon
Replied on: 05/28/2004 11:08:45 AM
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by kgf

Interesting. I've finally got a reproducable "skip". I just got my new Starseeds CD yesterday and encoded it -q5 (as I usually do). The first track, "Starman", skips every time in the same place, within the first 10-15 seconds of play.

Consider sending that track in to DI for analysis.

quote:
Originally posted by kgf

It is not a problem with the Ogg file since it plays fine on my PC.

Of course your PC is only what, 100 times more powerful than the Neuros?

-- 'I switched to Vorbis and saved a bunch on my hard-disk space!'

Reply author: kgf
Replied on: 05/28/2004 11:34:04 AM
Message:

No, I wasn't referring to the power of the player, I was referring to the file itself; it's not "flawed" in any way.

Who would I send the file to? Is there an email address or contact for that?

Reply author: nxg125
Replied on: 05/28/2004 11:40:28 AM
Message:

quote:
No, I wasn't referring to the power of the player, I was referring to the file itself; it's not "flawed" in any way.

I think Chameleon's point is that maybe there is something about this file such that the Neuros is having trouble decoding it. Maybe it can't decode it in real time, for example, but your PC can because it is many times more powerful.
quote:
Who would I send the file to? Is there an email address or contact for that?

I would say probably Kathryn... kborn(at)neurosaudio.com

--Nick

Reply author: kborn(at)neurosaudio.com
Replied on: 05/28/2004 12:25:35 PM
Message:

Try another media player. I can hear defects on some players, and not on others.

You might want to try re-ripping the song.

If it's a skip in the same place, then it is on the file. The garden variety chirping problem we all talk about is random, sometimes is happens in some places on some songs, and then when you replay, it won't do it again.

As an aside, I was talking to an engineer from our parent company (of sorts) that makes the Skip Dr. One interesting thing he told me is that all CDs have errors in the files. But as soon as you rip or burn a CD, its RIDDLED with errors, most of which you can't hear. Like you may notice it takes a lot to scratch a CD you get from the store, and CDs I burn myself get scratched very badly, very easily.


K

Neuros Support

Reply author: kgf
Replied on: 05/28/2004 12:37:52 PM
Message:

The random skip surely isn't just caused by CD defects is it? Are any MP3 users hearing these skips?

Is this an "open issue" at all with Neuros? Just curious.

Reply author: webkid
Replied on: 05/29/2004 01:33:49 AM
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by kgf

The random skip surely isn't just caused by CD defects is it?

Doubtful. Just a lack of power in the device. Those skips are buffer underruns. I wonder if there was a way to increase the buffer size of Ogg playback...

Reply author: rochers
Replied on: 05/29/2004 09:58:39 AM
Message:

I used mostly WMA's and I hear the skips too...they are encoded at 192kpbs.

Reply author: kgf
Replied on: 05/31/2004 06:26:27 AM
Message:

Ah..silly me. Did some investigation into that track where I had the "reproducable" skip. Turns out it's part of the song itself (ie not a defect). It just a very fast transition that almost sounds like a defect. :)

Reply author: webkid
Replied on: 05/31/2004 3:22:36 PM
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by kgf

It is not a problem with the Ogg file since it plays fine on my PC.

Guess you didn't listen hard enough...

Reply author: encosion's neuros died again... encosion has left the building in a huff, never to return...
Replied on: 09/15/2004 10:06:14 AM
Message:

here's my decision on the subject of OGG playback : having gone from "-q7" GTb2 encoded OGGs to "-q6" ..and then down to "-q5" : i've finally decided to ditch OGG playback on the neuros as i've found it unsatisfactory ..it's currently stacked with "-q5" OGGs, transcoded from FLAC, sync'd with NDBM, on FW 2.24

. .. ...but i'm still getting skips during playback ..i've even checked that some of the more troublesome files are indeed bit perfect on the neuros' drive using the SFV files i made ..they even playback perfectly in foobar2000 0.83 and winamp 5.04 straight from the neuros' hardrive when connected as a removeable drive via usb... . .

. .. ...another reason for ditching OGG for now is that i've a hunch that it actually consumes more power than MP3 playback ..i haven't tested this of course - that's why it's just an unfounded 'hunch' ..but i could swear i've noticed a power bar dropping when OGG files are played { and no it's not placebo, 'cos i actually really wanted OGG to work for me }... .. .

so in the end { for now at least } : i've opted to transcode from FLAC to MP3 LAME 3.96.1 (stable) "--alt-preset extreme" for neuros playback instead... .. .

. .. ...but not that i expect anyone to care about my personal decisions .[!].. heheheh... .. .

:: peace out ::: :: :

Reply author: webkid
Replied on: 09/15/2004 12:05:38 PM
Message:

I dunno. With all the battering and punishment my N has gone through, you'd think mine performed worse. But I get no skips... zero, via headphones with -q6. MyFi I get roughly one an hour, and that's on the industrial tracks.

Have not noticed a power issue, but then, I have mine plugged in a lot.

Reply author: Matthias Halibrand
Replied on: 09/16/2004 06:39:35 AM
Message:

encosion:
Which ogg-encoder did you usually use? I think I noticed differences between them, but I couldn't sort them out, yet! Your info would be cool!

THX

Matthias

Liebe und Frieden ...

Reply author: encosion's neuros died again... encosion has left the building in a huff, never to return...
Replied on: 09/16/2004 08:09:37 AM
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by Matthias Halibrand : Which ogg-encoder did you usually use? I think I noticed differences between them, but I couldn't sort them out, yet! Your info would be cool!


oggdropXPd 1.7.11 using GT3b2 [23.06.2004]
http://www.rarewares.org/ogg.html

:: peace out ::: :: :

Reply author: Matthias Halibrand
Replied on: 09/17/2004 02:49:17 AM
Message:

That was my guess. I used GT3b2, too, for a long time and encountered these problems. Try Megamix2 for testingf purpose, that's much better! I think the problem with GT is the bitrate-jump! But I really don't know!

Cheers,

Matthias

Liebe und Frieden ...

Reply author: webkid
Replied on: 09/17/2004 12:05:10 PM
Message:

Got a link?

Reply author: encosion's neuros died again... encosion has left the building in a huff, never to return...
Replied on: 09/17/2004 12:18:53 PM
Message:

same place : http://www.rarewares.org/ogg.html

:: peace out ::: :: :

Reply author: squinn124(at)comcast.net
Replied on: 05/04/2005 2:21:44 PM
Message:

I too am experiencing the skip problem, my songs are all mp3's. The songs will play and randomly skip ahead a few seconds when the song ends it then replays about the last 20 seconds of the song. The skip ahead part sometimes is not even noticable but the replay of the end of the song is quite annoying.
Steve

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