XI Menus & Idea
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Topic URL: http://www.neurosaudio.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=723
Printed on: 03/24/2006
Topic:
Topic author: Gene - MP3 Engineer
Subject: XI Menus & Idea I may have missed it somewhere, but when will the ability to write your own XI menus?
Replies:
Posted on: 05/01/2003 12:00:01 PM
Message:
The one menu feature I would like (and would write given the tools) would be Albums under Artist.
Since I really don't make playlists too often and want to play through an entire Album.
Right now if you go in to Artist you get all of the Artist's songs. I have 10 different bootlegs of a song. I don't want to hear them all. I want to play through the whole Album.
I know I can go to an album, under albums, but I don't remember all of the ablum names and who sings them. I have ~ 17G on my Neuros. So, one more level in the tree would help.
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 05/01/2003 12:05:37 PM
Message:
You might be able to do this with the developer tools which are not yet available.
-Jeff
Reply author: kborn(at)neurosaudio.com
Replied on: 05/01/2003 12:13:15 PM
Message:
We could build it on NSM, but the firmware wouldn't support it. The new firmware, the one in the fall, will support this type of functionality.
Kathryn
Reply author: Gene - MP3 Engineer
Replied on: 05/01/2003 12:15:20 PM
Message:
I'm ready for the tools, can't wait.
Since I don't have any idea what the database schema looks like, its hard to tell, but I doubt this is a major change.
I think it would be a good enhancement for everyone. I would think others would like the ability to find an album under the artist and then play it. I'm too lazy to make play lists. That is why I put all of my music on the Neuros.
Looks like new beta PC software available too.
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 05/01/2003 12:17:32 PM
Message:
If you are interested in other things the Neuros can possibly be made to do with scripting then see
http://www.neurosaudio.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=709
-Jeff
Reply author: Gene - MP3 Engineer
Replied on: 05/01/2003 12:20:18 PM
Message:
Kathryn,
Is there an easy way to create playlists that were the albums?
That is to say can NSM create 100's of playlists, each one containing the list of songs in an album? Or is that what will not be supported by the firmware.
Maybe some other software can do it? Like Musicmatch.
Can you explain what you mean by firmware in the Fall? Will the next version not be out until Fall, or is that a major redesign? I am new to these forums, but don't recall any reference to the Fall.
Thanks for the response.
quote:
Originally posted by kborn(at)neurosaudio.com
We could build it on NSM, but the firmware wouldn't support it. The new firmware, the one in the fall, will support this type of functionality.
Kathryn
Reply author: kborn(at)neurosaudio.com
Replied on: 05/01/2003 1:42:55 PM
Message:
Hi Gene,
The playlist work around is not bad at all. Under views, you can see all the albums. Then just right-click on the album you wish, and pick, "Add to playlist".
How does that sound?
Ok, the firmware release thing is the Big Version 2 of the FW, a total restructuring. It will allow you to Add to My Mix while playing, listen to music while making changes on the device. Etc. In short, it will rock.
Kathryn
Reply author: webkid
Replied on: 05/01/2003 1:48:40 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by kborn(at)neurosaudio.com
The playlist work around is not bad at all. Under views, you can see all the albums. Then just right-click on the album you wish, and pick, "Add to playlist".
How does that sound?
I think his problem was that he wanted Artist -> Album -> Play Album.
Reply author: Gene - MP3 Engineer
Replied on: 05/01/2003 3:28:19 PM
Message:
Artist -> Album -> Play Album Yes, this was the request, well put.
Again my problem is that I have 50 albums under 1 artist. Let's say bootlegs of The Dead or Springsteen. They have all kinds of funky names, which I do not recognize under Album.
So, if I could make a playlist called BS-"album name" or GD-"album name" Then I could scroll through the playlists and play the albums. But I don't want to do it manually or change all of the tags.
Make sense?
This would help in the car while drinking my coffee, talking on the phone and choosing music on the Neuros.
Reply author: kborn(at)neurosaudio.com
Replied on: 05/01/2003 11:26:02 PM
Message:
I see what you are saying. This feature has been a popular request.
As I mentioned, this would not be that hard to do on NSM, but we couldn't do it on the device with the firmware as is. We have decided to wait to create the NSM side until the firmware could support it.
But it sound like, if I understand your post, that even just the NSM side could help you to some extent. Everyone please speak up if having the NSM side of the Artist> Album issue would be a very important thing for you.
Know one great truth, o ye forum posters, priorities really are dictated by user demand. If a good number of people speak up, it can make a change in the order of things done internally.
So let me know what you think,
Kathryn
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 05/01/2003 11:51:54 PM
Message:
Would that apply to USB 2.0 ('cause summer is a rather long time to wait)?
I, too, would like to see albums under the artists. It would make searching a whole lot easier. For me I'd want it on the firmware, it would do me no good to have it on NSM.
-Jeff
Reply author: kborn(at)neurosaudio.com
Replied on: 05/01/2003 11:59:44 PM
Message:
I know it seems like a long wait, but USB 2.0 is a textbook case of an issue that we had no idea would spark the consumer feedback it did. Remember that a hardware change involves a lot of processes, it needs to be actually designed and built, not just programmed. So changes like that will take longer to implemement.
K
Reply author: Cool4u2view
Replied on: 05/02/2003 12:09:21 AM
Message:
Will you guys do me a huge favor and keep firewire in mind while designing the USB 2.0 support so that it will not take the same amount of time to support firewire (which most informed people, who look at actual benchmarks, know is a superior interface)?
I know it's "on the list," but if it is kept in mind while designing USB 2.0 it may make your job a whole lot easier later on.
-Jeff
Reply author: paulie1000
Replied on: 05/02/2003 08:24:10 AM
Message:
I would like to see Albums under Artist, but primarily on the Neuros. I wouldn't have as much of a need to see that on NSM. As long as you can sort in NSM (multiple sorts would be great to have again-like in 1.20), this isn't much of a problem for me there.
Reply author: cole
Replied on: 10/15/2003 5:53:26 PM
Message:
I agree with the logic behind this whole-heartedly. When you have 5000 songs (or so) at your disposal, that means you could have hundreds of songs within any given "artist" category, and probably much more within a "genre" category. Once you're in this category, without a subcategory, you can select either individual songs, or you've got "sequential" and "random". It basically comes down to wanting the same navigation style as our folders most of us want back so much.
Reply author: Drew
Replied on: 10/16/2003 1:32:59 PM
Message:
But it sound like, if I understand your post, that even just the NSM side could help you to some extent. Everyone please speak up if having the NSM side of the Artist> Album issue would be a very important thing for you.
It would mean a lot more to me if it was on the Neuros side, but even on the NSM side, that would be nice. It's just that when I'm looking on the Neuros, I can never remember who did what album...I know that I want to listen to an artist and I can remember what was on the album, but I don't want to listen through four or five albums to pick out the ten songs from the one album that I wanted to hear. Does that make sense?
A quick workaround is to make playlists, which I've done for quite a few albums. It's just a little time consuming...but it will do for now.
Reply author: Third Rail Design Lab
Replied on: 10/16/2003 1:50:39 PM
Message:
I just thought of a way to seal the deal on this workaround. KB, you've said that artist/album breakdown can be done in NSM, right?
What if we could have a "make Playlist" option in NSM so that we select an album, and press that selection, and NSM writes the playlist for that album, and titles it [artist name]_[album name]...
so that way, we could easily automate the creation of album playlists, by selecting a group of albums, and hitting this button, and letting NSM do the work?
In addition, if NSM would support the artist, album format as described above, then we could select the ARTIST, and have an option to create playlists of each album within the artist's tree.
You'd still ultimately end up with alot of scrolling in the playlist menu of the Neuros...if you have 10 Boards of Canada recordings, you'd now have 10 entries in playlists called Boards of Canada_xxxxxx, etc.
True artist/album trees on teh Neuros are beneficial because you have a folder to open to release another menu of items, so there's less scrolling.
But an automated playlisting function in NSM would be very helpful.
Reply author: magog
Replied on: 10/16/2003 1:53:38 PM
Message:
With the current firmware, can the menus be hacked? That is, can I edit the XML files that define the menu structure and the changes will appear in the Neuros after the next synch?
Could I thus use "brute force" to create a static Artists/Albums hierarchy? Is there a maximum size for the menu definitions?
(I don't have a Neuros yet, so I can't experiment with this myself...)
Michael
Reply author: neuros(at)mkfifo.net
Replied on: 01/20/2004 7:24:53 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by webkid
I think his problem was that he wanted Artist -> Album -> Play Album.
This is something I really need to be able to do on the Neuros. In fact, I might have waited to purchase if I had known in advance that this wasn't an option. Any idea when this will be possible?
Reply author: Chameleon
Replied on: 01/21/2004 10:48:19 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by neuros(at)mkfifo.netquote:
Originally posted by webkid
I think his problem was that he wanted Artist -> Album -> Play Album.
This is something I really need to be able to do on the Neuros. In fact, I might have waited to purchase if I had known in advance that this wasn't an option. Any idea when this will be possible?
I believe from reading this thread that the desired functionality should be available in OS/2 which is currently in testing and will be available very soon.
Order Number: 2249
Reply author: kronin
Replied on: 01/21/2004 11:30:14 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleonquote:
Originally posted by neuros(at)mkfifo.netquote:
Originally posted by webkid
I think his problem was that he wanted Artist -> Album -> Play Album.
This is something I really need to be able to do on the Neuros. In fact, I might have waited to purchase if I had known in advance that this wasn't an option. Any idea when this will be possible?
I believe from reading this thread that the desired functionality should be available in OS/2 which is currently in testing and will be available very soon.
Order Number: 2249
Except, reread Joe Born's post:
quote:
Just to give everyone an update, we're planning on releasing a total rewrite of the firmware to Alpha pretty soon, that includes many of the features that folks have been asking for (not all, and most of the dbase stuff will not be in the first version). It's largely done already but it's not yet useable. We'll keep you posted.
Joe
It sounds like _eventually_ the db stuff will be in the new firmware, but it's not in the first version.
Reply author: Sean Starkey
Replied on: 01/21/2004 1:46:49 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleonquote:
Originally posted by neuros(at)mkfifo.netquote:
Originally posted by webkid
I think his problem was that he wanted Artist -> Album -> Play Album.
This is something I really need to be able to do on the Neuros. In fact, I might have waited to purchase if I had known in advance that this wasn't an option. Any idea when this will be possible?
I believe from reading this thread that the desired functionality should be available in OS/2 which is currently in testing and will be available very soon.
I don't know if firmware 2.0 supports the subdatabase structure as described in the thread you specified. Regardless, the sync software has to be updated to do such a thing.
Sean Starkey - Project Manager for Neuros Database Manipulator - http://neurosdbm.sourceforge.net
Reply author: mgao
Replied on: 01/21/2004 1:55:33 PM
Message:
No, OS2.0 DB structure will not be able to _directly_ support album under artist.
There is workaround possible, such as Album->Artist->Album->(play Album), or FW can be hard-coded to support Artist->Album with some software support. But none of this will be included in initial OS2.0 release. This actually is not a minor change, considering the NSM and all 3rd party tools change.
Reply author: Third Rail Design Lab
Replied on: 01/21/2004 3:08:14 PM
Message:
I believe in you mgao.
You will bring Artist/Ambum to the People.
Reply author: Chameleon
Replied on: 01/21/2004 3:57:23 PM
Message:
I guess I read too much into that... My bad.
mgao: Have you ever heard of or looked into SQLite? It's an Open Source "Embeddable SQL Database Engine". Looks to only target x86 currently, but might be possible to port to the TI DSP.
It would be ideal for the Neuros to use an SQL engine and would allow nearly infinite possibilities for end users to somehow create any query desired in order to view/organize their music/files -- perhaps through the scripting language that may or may not be included in OS/2.x?
hehe, I guess it would have helped if I had mentioned it half a year ago...
Order Number: 2249
Reply author: webkid
Replied on: 01/21/2004 8:25:18 PM
Message:
There is a problem with that... how does NSM/NDBM/Positron communicate with the SQL database through a FAT32 filesystem? I would have to assume that either you take down the entire database file structure and rewrite it as it is now (which does not seem very reasonable, given major rewrites to already existing softwares) or some sort of "batch" would have to be written to the device, but then how does the unit communicate backwards while it's in "sync" mode? What happens with the USB 2.0 backpack whcn there's no brain?
SQL is great, but I think it's a little late, as you said. Hmm. But I imagine there will be a way, in time.
Reply author: chad(at)gambit.net
Replied on: 01/21/2004 8:58:16 PM
Message:
SELECT * IN 'ALBUMS' WHERE 'ARTIST' = $input
:P
Reply author: webkid
Replied on: 01/21/2004 9:03:23 PM
Message:
No... that's not the problem. I know how to query an SQL database. What I'm talking about is this:
How do we put that query into the Neuros? Who/what parses and runs the query? There's no sockets in this situation.
So do we write it to a file? That's all well and good, but then how do we get the result set back?
Do you see where I'm going with this?
Reply author: Chameleon
Replied on: 01/22/2004 10:32:44 AM
Message:
I'm proposing using an SQL engine instead of the current DB engine. I know that I mentioned this too late for it to be possible for OS/2, so consider it for OS/3.
SQLite on the Neuros would make the Neuros an SQL server. You would connect to it with SQL client interfaces. The firmware and NSM/NDBM/whatever would need to be SQL clients.
It's not difficult to interface with an SQL server... I automate software testing for a living and my scripts can and do interface directly with multiple types of SQL servers.
Order Number: 2249
Reply author: Sean Starkey
Replied on: 01/22/2004 11:08:50 AM
Message:
I don't think the Neuros has the CPU horsepower to implement an SQL server. Maybe I'm wrong.
Sean Starkey - Project Manager for Neuros Database Manipulator - http://neurosdbm.sourceforge.net
Reply author: Chameleon
Replied on: 01/22/2004 11:44:42 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by Starkey
I don't think the Neuros has the CPU horsepower to implement an SQL server. Maybe I'm wrong.
I agree that it won't be running Microsoft SQL Server 2003 any time soon, but it might be able to run this SQLite which only has a memory footprint of 25KB for the entire server.
SQLite is meant to be used in embedded devices.
Edit:
Considering that the iPod runs a 40MHz ARM7 core (see 2.9.1) and the Neuros' main DSP Core runs either 120 MHz or 160 MHz (still not certain on which it is) and that Linux can run on the iPod and could run on the Neuros, I think it's possible to implement this or another small footprint embedded SQL server into the Neuros.
Order Number: 2249
Reply author: Sean Starkey
Replied on: 01/22/2004 1:30:14 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleonquote:
Originally posted by Starkey
I don't think the Neuros has the CPU horsepower to implement an SQL server. Maybe I'm wrong.
I agree that it won't be running Microsoft SQL Server 2003 any time soon, but it might be able to run this SQLite which only has a memory footprint of 25KB for the entire server.
SQLite is meant to be used in embedded devices.
Edit:
Considering that the iPod runs a 40MHz ARM7 core (see 2.9.1) and the Neuros' main DSP Core runs either 120 MHz or 160 MHz (still not certain on which it is) and that Linux can run on the iPod and could run on the Neuros, I think it's possible to implement this or another small footprint embedded SQL server into the Neuros.
As you probably know, there is a lot more to a CPU's power than pure clock speed. But since iPod can do it, Neuros can probably do it.
A SQL server would be neat and powerful. But a lot can be done with the current database structure. The firmware doesn't support all the functionality of the database structure. If it did, you'd see a lot more stuff in our menus.
Sean Starkey - Project Manager for Neuros Database Manipulator - http://neurosdbm.sourceforge.net
Reply author: Chameleon
Replied on: 01/22/2004 3:55:48 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by Starkey
As you probably know, there is a lot more to a CPU's power than pure clock speed. But since iPod can do it, Neuros can probably do it.
A SQL server would be neat and powerful. But a lot can be done with the current database structure. The firmware doesn't support all the functionality of the database structure. If it did, you'd see a lot more stuff in our menus.
Show me the money!!
An SQL server *would* be immensely powerful... it could go WAY beyond just a DB of music...
Anyway, I hope to see more of the functionality of the database structure in OS/2.
Hmm... Maybe a firmware with the SQL engine could be called "OS/2 Warp"........
But that might be going a bit too far.
Order Number: 2249
Reply author: webkid
Replied on: 01/22/2004 5:57:00 PM
Message:
I still argue that with the way we have it now, where the only means of communication with the Neuros is a passive USB Mass Storage driver for FAT32, implementing with an SQL database would have to involve downloading the entire database structure as a file, modifying it per SQLLite code, then re-uploading it. And I know that Starkey doesn't have porting C into Java as a top priority... 
Reply author: Chameleon
Replied on: 01/23/2004 2:09:21 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by webkid
I still argue that with the way we have it now, where the only means of communication with the Neuros is a passive USB Mass Storage driver for FAT32, implementing with an SQL database would have to involve downloading the entire database structure as a file, modifying it per SQLLite code, then re-uploading it. And I know that Starkey doesn't have porting C into Java as a top priority...
Why would you have to do any of that if the Neuros becomes an SQL server? It doesn't make sense.
All you'd have to do is send SQL commands to the Neuros and the onboard server would process them and make it happen.
Probably wouldn't work using USB Mass Storage protocol... Is it possible to send TCP/IP over USB?
Order Number: 2249
Reply author: webkid
Replied on: 01/24/2004 02:47:28 AM
Message:
There, someone finally understands my point.
That is exactly the problem... unless the Neuros can modify the USB client real time via the firmware, I'm guessing we're stuck with USB MS. Now, if we made the protocol propriatary, we could have file transfer with sockets and everything. But then Linux/Mac support would languish.
Is there an open standard to making a USB device like a network adapter? I'm sure there's plenty for cable/DSL modems and such, but I thought most of those were based on brand... and besides, I'm merely musing at this point... it's really doubtful that this could/would be implemented.
Reply author: sez
Replied on: 01/24/2004 09:19:58 AM
Message:
I know that my Zaurus communicates with my Linux laptop via TCP/IP over USB. I had to set up a separate subnet for it and configure iptables to do forwarding between the Zaurus's network and the actual network my machine sits on.
For Linux, it's the usbnet driver -- it's one of the kernel modules. Once my Zaurus is plugged into the usb port, I can treat it like any other Linux machine--ssh into it, scp files over to it, etc. I can ping it and it responds like any other machine on the network.
I think the more pertinent question would be modifying the firmware on the Neuros to support TCP/IP over USB. Or porting Linux over to the Neuros.
Reply author: kronin
Replied on: 01/24/2004 09:57:47 AM
Message:
Now we're back to needing a full tcp/ip stack in the firmware (we got here with the ethernet port discussion, too). I do think having a tcp/ip stack would be pretty cool, but I'm hesitant to say the Neuros has the horsepower to run it plus a SQL server plus ftp. On top of that, I doubt Neuros' DSP can process incoming files (assuming we got a tcp/ip stack and an ftp server) as fast as treating it like a USB mass-storage device.
Reply author: Chameleon
Replied on: 01/26/2004 10:46:24 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by kronin
Now we're back to needing a full tcp/ip stack in the firmware (we got here with the ethernet port discussion, too). I do think having a tcp/ip stack would be pretty cool, but I'm hesitant to say the Neuros has the horsepower to run it plus a SQL server plus ftp. On top of that, I doubt Neuros' DSP can process incoming files (assuming we got a tcp/ip stack and an ftp server) as fast as treating it like a USB mass-storage device.
Why not? I can FTP using my 33 MHz Palm OS PDA.
Order Number: 2249
Reply author: Ziviyr
Replied on: 01/26/2004 12:45:54 PM
Message:
Does your PDA have 64K or less RAM?
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