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Josh Coalson
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18 Posts |
 Posted - 10/13/2004 : 3:28:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gar Bage
To my knowledge there is no such thing as a FLAC integer-only C library.
Maybe, I'm wrong, but FLAC makes extensively use of floating-point operations so it could be a really pain to make the Neuros *encode* to FLAC in realtime. Wich, in turn, it's the only use for FLAC i'd recommend for a portable device... taping or live recording.
floating point is only used in the linear prediction stage. you can get 95% of the compression using the fixed predictors which are integer only (i.e. using 'flac -l 0').
about the other lossless formats, shn might be doable but seeking could be problematic. seek tables in shn are kind of a klunky add-on. the source code license is also free only for non-commercial use.
monkey's audio may not be fast enough (the neuros might be able to keep up with the lowest compression modes, not sure). there are licensing problems also, since the source may not be license compatible with the firmware license and also parts of the monkey's audio source are GPL-encumbered.
Josh
- Josh Coalson - FLAC developer - |
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Gar Bage
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108 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 6:47:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Josh Coalson
floating point is only used in the linear prediction stage. you can get 95% of the compression using the fixed predictors which are integer only (i.e. using 'flac -l 0').
about the other lossless formats, shn might be doable but seeking could be problematic. seek tables in shn are kind of a klunky add-on. the source code license is also free only for non-commercial use.
monkey's audio may not be fast enough (the neuros might be able to keep up with the lowest compression modes, not sure). there are licensing problems also, since the source may not be license compatible with the firmware license and also parts of the monkey's audio source are GPL-encumbered.
Josh
- Josh Coalson - FLAC developer -
Now we get to a point.
The Xiph BSD style license of the FLAC codec allows us to try to merge portions of libFLAC into our open source codebase with no limitations.
And you say we can do integer-only operations for encoding.
Does that apply to decoding as well?
I guess we should make a FLAC branch of the firmware and test it out.
The sooner we start, the sooner we'll get it working.
-- Help put peace in the world. Buck Fush, Bill Kush. |
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Josh Coalson
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18 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 2:06:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gar Bage
quote:
Originally posted by Josh Coalson
floating point is only used in the linear prediction stage. you can get 95% of the compression using the fixed predictors which are integer only (i.e. using 'flac -l 0').
Now we get to a point.
The Xiph BSD style license of the FLAC codec allows us to try to merge portions of libFLAC into our open source codebase with no limitations.
And you say we can do integer-only operations for encoding.
Does that apply to decoding as well?
yes, decoding is integer only.
on the encoding side, you'd have to rip out the stuff that does lpc analysis. there is a log calculation in fixed.c that would have to be integerized, and that is it.
if it would help I could make such a stripped-down version of libFLAC for you.
- Josh Coalson - FLAC developer - |
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noiz
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919 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 2:11:02 PM
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quote:
yes, decoding is integer only.
on the encoding side, you'd have to rip out the stuff that does lpc analysis. there is a log calculation in fixed.c that would have to be integerized, and that is it.
if it would help I could make such a stripped-down version of libFLAC for you.
- Josh Coalson - FLAC developer -
yeah, that seems like it would be good if you would start the work on that. since we know that the neuros would need everything in integers this would probably really help if you could make a stripped down version of libFLAC...
-noiz |
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Gar Bage
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108 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 3:23:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Josh Coalson
if it would help I could make such a stripped-down version of libFLAC for you.
- Josh Coalson - FLAC developer -
I'll appreciate it.
When you got it ready, please, go to http://neuros-firmware.sourceforge.net and attach that to a topic of your choice.
Let me know it there's something we can do to help you.
Thanks.
-- Help put peace in the world. Buck Fush, Bill Kush. |
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Josh Coalson
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18 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 3:26:39 PM
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ok, I've started on this. another question though, are there any other platform limitations I should know about? e.g. does the platform support 64-bit int types and arithmetic on them?
- Josh Coalson - FLAC developer - |
Edited by - Josh Coalson on 10/20/2004 3:27:04 PM |
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Gar Bage
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108 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 5:09:24 PM
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Nope, no 64 bit integers here.
See this file for some 64 bit emulation math code already present in the Vorbis decoder.
-- Help put peace in the world. Buck Fush, Bill Kush. |
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Josh Coalson
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Posted - 10/20/2004 : 5:24:48 PM
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ugh, that's more work... in libFLAC, anything that has to do with a sample number (e.g. seek table) is 64bits. ok, will bite the bullet.
Josh
- Josh Coalson - FLAC developer - |
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noiz
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919 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 5:39:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Josh Coalson
ugh, that's more work... in libFLAC, anything that has to do with a sample number (e.g. seek table) is 64bits. ok, will bite the bullet.
Josh
- Josh Coalson - FLAC developer -
awesome, thanks for taking one for the team...
-noiz |
Edited by - noiz on 10/20/2004 5:40:19 PM |
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sfmcnally at hotmail
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5 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 8:13:54 PM
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how goes the fight? Anything I can do to help it along?
flac flac please implement flac!!! |
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Josh Coalson
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18 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 11:55:44 PM
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integerization is almost done. getting rid of the 64-bit stuff is going to be *really* hard. there are 64-bit ints used throughout the API and library, which means I have to make a struct out of the 64-bit type (#ifdef conditionalized everywhere), and handle every 64-bit operation manually.
- Josh Coalson - FLAC developer - |
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Gar Bage
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108 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2004 : 01:42:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Josh Coalson
integerization is almost done. getting rid of the 64-bit stuff is going to be *really* hard. there are 64-bit ints used throughout the API and library, which means I have to make a struct out of the 64-bit type (#ifdef conditionalized everywhere), and handle every 64-bit operation manually.
- Josh Coalson - FLAC developer -
As i suggested before, i invite you to take a peek at the underlaying math emulation code for Ogg Vorbis, which is already written.
Thank you again for your work.
-- Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. (Ben Franklin) |
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flacifyme
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3 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 04:39:26 AM
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| Whoo-hoo! Just offering some moral support. I know you can do it! |
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billybob77036(at)yahoo.com
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20 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2004 : 1:47:09 PM
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Thanks for working so hard on this guys. Recording in FLAC is the most important function to me currently out of all the players/recorders out now.
So if I'm reading this right, you will be able to encode (record) in flac?
Thanks |
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camster
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Posted - 12/27/2004 : 9:41:58 PM
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Just wanted to say that I found out about Neuros through a music trading site, where we're all FLAC geeks, and if you get your products working with FLAC, there will be one less iPod sale next year.
thanks for listening.
cheers,
camster
doodle doodle dee, wubba wubba wubba |
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BigBoss
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Posted - 01/03/2005 : 2:49:24 PM
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My company recently launched a new electronic music service called Mindawn (www.mindawn.com) and we offer our music in both Ogg and FLAC format. We're looking for a hardware partner that we can work with to get some good penetration in to the iPod market and Neuros looks the best. We're also a software company, so we're able to do pretty much whatever we need to get things done. We have both client and CD ripping software for Linux, Windows and Mac, just check the download page on our site. I'm going to check with Josh to see how things are coming and if we can provide any help with it.
Regards,
Shawn Gordon
President
www.thekompany.com
www.mindawn.com
Shawn Gordon |
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billybob77036(at)yahoo.com
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Posted - 01/03/2005 : 3:09:39 PM
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Shawn,
It can't come soon enough. |
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fatoldpig
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19 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 3:47:11 PM
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anymore news on flac support and gapless playback?
if flac is not happening anytime soon, i can probably play wav format.
does neuros play wav format gapless? |
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Josh Coalson
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18 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 4:07:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gar Bage
quote:
Originally posted by Josh Coalson
integerization is almost done. getting rid of the 64-bit stuff is going to be *really* hard. there are 64-bit ints used throughout the API and library, which means I have to make a struct out of the 64-bit type (#ifdef conditionalized everywhere), and handle every 64-bit operation manually.
As i suggested before, i invite you to take a peek at the underlaying math emulation code for Ogg Vorbis, which is already written.
the actual math functions are the easy part, what's hard is hooking it up everywhere. there are a lot of places. FLAC supports up to 32-bits per sample losslessly which means there are a lot of 64-bit datapaths. and the seeking and metadata interfaces that work with 64-bit sample number are numerous.
I don't really have an ETA for this. I have not been able to start yet. I've been trying to get a handle on a bunch of PPC asm optimizations that have come in before I do something that is going to touch all the code.
out of curiosity, what part(s) of the development toolchain can't do 64-bit ints? I would think that a compiler/libc for a 32-bit uC would at least have 64-bit emulation.
- Josh Coalson - FLAC developer - |
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Chameleon
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1396 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 6:56:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BigBoss
My company recently launched a new electronic music service called Mindawn (www.mindawn.com) and we offer our music in both Ogg and FLAC format. We're looking for a hardware partner that we can work with to get some good penetration in to the iPod market and Neuros looks the best. We're also a software company, so we're able to do pretty much whatever we need to get things done. We have both client and CD ripping software for Linux, Windows and Mac, just check the download page on our site. I'm going to check with Josh to see how things are coming and if we can provide any help with it.
Regards,
Shawn Gordon
President
www.thekompany.com
www.mindawn.com
Shawn Gordon
Hi Shawn,
Very nice to see you here.
Interesting company and ideas... I'll become a customer if I find something I like.
Anyway, you should really get in touch with Joe Born. He's the President of Neuros Audio, LLC. and will be better able to assist you.
I'm sure you can reach him via the Business Development email address listed on the Contact Us page.
-- 'I switched to Vorbis and saved a bunch on my hard-disk space!' |
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Lossless Audio Format?
