Neuros Technology Forums

Just to make it clear, everything posted does not have any relation to the people making the Neuros, these are just some ideas I had in mind, and wanted to share with you.

Well anyway, I made some images on how I would like Neuros 3 to look like. The most major changes I have done from Neuros II, are mostly these three things:

1. I have used a 1.8" hard drive, as I would like in the real product as well...so the device will become much smaller.
2. I have made it, so that the hard drive is pulled inside the Neuros (take a look at the images).
3. I have also replaced some of the buttons. [Edit: Replaced them back to the original]


[Edit: All of the images are now updated to the new design]
Yeah, here are the goodies:
Image 1 ("http://home.no.net/egilclan/stuff/neuros/1.jpg") Yup, here it is [8D]
Image 2 ("http://home.no.net/egilclan/stuff/neuros/2.jpg") From another view
Image 3 ("http://home.no.net/egilclan/stuff/neuros/3.jpg") A little closeup
Image 4 ("http://home.no.net/egilclan/stuff/neuros/4.jpg") from the other side
Image 5 ("http://home.no.net/egilclan/stuff/neuros/5.jpg") Top-view
Compared to the old Neuros I/II ("http://home.no.net/egilclan/stuff/neuros/comparison.jpg")
Small image of it ("http://home.no.net/egilclan/stuff/neuros/small.jpg")(lookes cute, doesn't it? [;)])

 The first design ("http://home.no.net/egilclan/stuff/neuros/1old.jpg")Just in case you want to take a look at the old design, here is a picture of it.


Some of the things I'm not completely sure about:
 -The placement of the buttons. Maybe the "old style" is better?
 -Maybe the screen is a little big? (I can easily make it the original :P)
 -Do you guys think it's possible to make it this small at all?
 -And how big are the batteries (physical dimension)?



Come with any suggestion, comments, or whatever you want to say about these ideas/images...



Btw, if you want to take a closer look at it, you can download the Sketchup 3d-model from here ("http://home.no.net/egilclan/stuff/neuros/Neuros.skp"). If you don't have it already, you can get Sketchup from this site ("http://www.sketchup.com/").

one of the things I don't like about the current Neuros is that the quick buttons are easily pushed accidentally, which can cause confusion.  In your version, the buttons look like they would be even more prone to accidental activation.

Thats a really cool design, I can see you put a lot of effort into it. However, K has mentioned that they are aiming for N3 to be 1-piece. However, it is really cool how you did this, but you would need a lock specifically for the preset/recording buttons.

-- 'Microsoft Works is an Oxymoron'

Thanks for replys :P

As for the keylock, I totally forgot about that, and I have also fixed the buttons so that they are position the same way as in Neuros I/II.

And as a matter of fact, it "only" took me about 2 hours to make this thing. That program is a really cool and easy 3d-modeller (or whatever its called).

it's very cool! when I get back to the office I can post some others that we've received too



jborn (at) neurosaudio.com

Yes, it is cool, if by cool you mean lame and unimaginative. It looks almost exactly like the current design. The current design is simple and functional, but it still needs to be tweaked a little.

Nice one k-mouse!
It looks very similar to the current stuff, but that's not bad, I quite like the simplistic design.
The "slide in" hard disc is really sweet, but I guess it's not going to happen :)
Did you also think about "real" improvements, I mean, other than design?

Sure, a small unit is a pleasure to carry in your pocket, but what about a kind of interface for it so it can be used as an image bank (think about a CF slot, a higher resolution screen, preferrably able to display pictures,...)
Those are features I'm much more interested in then a small unit,though size _does_ matter eventually. Maybe a "universal connector" type of thingie at the bottom so the Neuros can interface to a docking station or a cardreader,...

Oh heck, I'm just dreaming out loud, I'll once get to see what DI made of the Neuros 3, and the sooner the better ;)

Personally I like the two piece design, it seems to allow expandability..

Internally I would like to see a second processor, then you can offload the decoding and FM encoding to the second processor while leaving the primary to handle the GUI - thus getting rid of the slugishness feel while playing... (Although coding this may be an interesting task ;>)


z

quote:

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Originally posted by notzippy

Personally I like the two piece design, it seems to allow expandability..

Internally I would like to see a second processor, then you can offload the decoding and FM encoding to the second processor while leaving the primary to handle the GUI - thus getting rid of the slugishness feel while playing... (Although coding this may be an interesting task ;>)

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In fact the current Neuros I & II have two processors internally.
One is the main TI DSP and the other is a Xilinx FPGA.

I agree that I like the expandability and I think the size & weight are just fine.

-- 'I switched to Vorbis and saved a bunch on my hard-disk space!'

Why don't they just make a PDA and then it will be able to do everything? Honestly I don't understand this whole picture viewing thing on an audio player. If you want such frills, there are devices that do that. What I would like to see instead of the hard drive option is cheap, large solid state RAM. I heard that such a thing is being worked on and when that happens, hard drives will be a thing of the past. Then the Neuros could be small and use much less power. I don't know whether or not that is in a time frame of until they come out with the Neuros III, but it's possible.

quote:

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Originally posted by Zithromax

Why don't they just make a PDA and then it will be able to do everything? Honestly I don't understand this whole picture viewing thing on an audio player. If you want such frills, there are devices that do that. What I would like to see instead of the hard drive option is cheap, large solid state RAM. I heard that such a thing is being worked on and when that happens, hard drives will be a thing of the past. Then the Neuros could be small and use much less power. I don't know whether or not that is in a time frame of until they come out with the Neuros III, but it's possible.

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Once this RAM you speak of becomes a reality, then all players will probably switch to it.  In the meantime, they have to work with the small HD sizes available to them.

These design pictures are great, k-mouse!  However I've heard that the Neuros III will ditch the backpack design and go for a 1-piece unit like the I-pod.  I'm wondering if maybe a compromise could be made and they use the detachable HD idea.


Gauge

i saw an mp3 player like that at stereo advantage when i was searching around for my first one a few years ago (bought an archos jukebox eventually, sucked).  you could pop the HD right out and plug it into the pc or something like that.  maybe the n3 could have something like that, but with a usb/firewire (male) connector on the hd, to elimate the need to carry wires everywhere.

http://69.161.68.95:8002  Llama Radio: All Rock, 24/7 (unless i shut my computer down)

K-mouse, would the HD be in some sort of case to keep the pins from easily being bent? How would that work?

-- 'Microsoft Works is an Oxymoron'

I'll take care of this one. The hard drive would be in a case that would make it very easy to accidentally bend the pins. Also the metal would be very brittle so that they would break off.

In regard to Gauge's comment, the Neuros III will not be out for probably a year or more. There is a possibility that RAM like that would exist by then. I'm thinking forward. I have to disagree that those concept images are "great". They would be great if the Neuros didn't already look almost exactly like that.

Oh come on...

quote:

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I have to disagree that those concept images are "great". They would be great if the Neuros didn't already look almost exactly like that.

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Take a horse. Add a barcode-like pattern on it's fur. That's no horse anymore, you'd call it a zebra. What I'm trying to say in my awfully bad English is that a Neuros is a Neuros, with some nice features separating it from "the other players"... Change those specific things and you don't have a Neuros anymore.

And what is all the talk about "large RAM"... As far as I'm concerned, RAM's not suitable for players, except for use in buffer applications.
RAM is memory that loses it's contents when power is removed. Now that would be handy! I'm on a long trip, my battery dies, I get a new one, and wow, all my content is gone... What a great storage device :|
You all mean flash. It's able to keep it's contents, even when power goes dead. And wake up people, mp3 players with flash memory _exist already_... OK, perhaps only to 2GB, if you want larger you need a hard disc player. And fact is, there is nothing wrong with that. People who need solid state players get a player with limited memory but large shock-proofness, people seeking large-capacity audio players get a hard-disc player. It's simple as that, and there's really nothing wrong with that (except when you should go on a mountaineering trip for several weeks, then you'd need friends or a radio...)

Honestly, I don't think there's a big market for small music devices with an enormous amount of storage in it.
There, however, is a market for cheap, open source many-in-one devices (music player, audio recorder, storage device and picture bank for example).

At least, that's my opinion, you don't have to agree with me, just giving my point of view, I'm not trying to start a flamebait :)
I'll be anxiously waiting 'till Neuros Inc. comes with the third version of this great device.

kbon, I agree about the horse/zebra thing. However, I think what he was refering to about the large scale ram is removable memory. Like a CF card, but at 20+ GB sizes. I'm guessing it would look somewhat like an old gameboy cartrage except larger.

-- 'Microsoft Works is an Oxymoron'

First of all guys, I just want to say thanks for all the replies.

The images I made wasn't meant to be new and revolutionary. I just draw what I was thinking at the moment, didn't really give it too much of a headache into it. And as for the lack of new functions and stuff like that, I didn't really think too much about that either. I didn't mean this design was meant to be "the ultimate" and final Neuros 3. Just some small ideas threw into these images. Why don't you guys give me, (and DI of course) some new ideas and stuff that would make this thing cool(er).

quote:

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K-mouse, would the HD be in some sort of case to keep the pins from easily being bent? How would that work?

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I guess there should be some kinda HD-case. Not really sure how that would work either, but I do believe DI will come up with something brilliant :P


[Edit:]Sorry guys, posted with my "old" account. Yes it's me, k-mouse :P

What I'm talking about is something that doesn't exist yet. Eventually we won't use hard drives as we do today and everything will be stored in solid state memory. Perhaps it's more than a year away, but it was just a thought.

As far as the interface is concerned, why does it have to be exactly the same? I think what makes the Neuros unique is not its interface, but its features. The Neuros 3 could still look similar to the current but have an improved button configuration and it still be called a Neuros. I never said anything about changing features.

Solid state storage can't compete with hard drives. A few years time won't change that. Perhaps when hard drive manufacturers find a physical limitation that truly cannot be overcome, but it will be a long time before that happens.

-- 'I switched to Vorbis and saved a bunch on my hard-disk space!'

I've drawn up a 3D image of what I'd like to see the Neuros III look like but I don't have a website to post it to. Is anyone willing to put it up on their's? If so, let me know and I'll email you a PDF of the rendered images.

You can always put it up on www.imageshack.us .

Also, if you email them to me, I would be very happy :).

My email should be in my profile.

Order #9082 :D

I've uploaded his images. They're in a PDF-file located here ("http://home.no.net/egilclan/stuff/neuros3view1.pdf").

Thanks k-mouse! I appreciate it.

Quite nice!  I like that design.

------Order #9082 :D

good design... i would try something similar if i had my 3d modeler still loaded.  Why dont you try to round off the square edges....it would make it handle a little better.  Would fit in the pocket better.

-nevermind...i only saw the earlier dwgs...new ones look nice

Okay guys...may I ask you which images you are talking about...mine or deez's?

i guess i was looking at deez's, that means that yours do need a little rounding on the edges[8D](I saw yours earlier

Yeah...if I only knew how to do that in Sketchup :P

I used AutoCAD 2004. I took Intro to AutoCAD and Intermediate AutoCAD a couple of years ago but then chose a different career path so I'm a little rusty, but it's starting to come back to me. AutoCAD is by no means a great piece of software when it comes to 3D, but it does work. If you're drawing in 2D, there's nothing better. I've actually been working on my design some more (adding more details) and I'll send it to k-mouse to put up when I'm done.
Thanks again, k-mouse!

Here are deez's new, updated images ("http://home.no.net/egilclan/stuff/neuros3view2.pdf"):


Personally I must say it looks nice! [8D]

But what about the shortcut-buttons, where are they?

Honestly, I never use the preset shortcut buttons, so I decided that since this is my concept it would be ok to omit them.

I agree. I think the shortcut buttons make it look ugly, and they're not THAT useful.



EDIT: This time around, they better use a standard USB connector.


------Order #9082 :D

quote:

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Originally posted by JoeBorn

it's very cool! when I get back to the office I can post some others that we've received too



jborn (at) neurosaudio.com

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Joe, are you still planning on posting those pix?

quote:

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Originally posted by kbon

Nice one k-mouse!
It looks very similar to the current stuff, but that's not bad, I quite like the simplistic design.
The "slide in" hard disc is really sweet, but I guess it's not going to happen :)
Did you also think about "real" improvements, I mean, other than design?

Sure, a small unit is a pleasure to carry in your pocket, but what about a kind of interface for it so it can be used as an image bank (think about a CF slot, a higher resolution screen, preferrably able to display pictures,...)
Those are features I'm much more interested in then a small unit,though size _does_ matter eventually. Maybe a "universal connector" type of thingie at the bottom so the Neuros can interface to a docking station or a cardreader,...

Oh heck, I'm just dreaming out loud, I'll once get to see what DI made of the Neuros 3, and the sooner the better ;)

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Since we're all talking about spending...let's see...around 250 to 500 on a player that will play music, photos, movies, etc...why not just get a laptop? Who  needs to spend that much money on something like an Archos player when you could just actually have a LAPTOP which will do ANYTHING you want it to, on a much bigger screen, and you won't have to bend over backwards to do it. I can seen carrying a laptop when you want to watch movies - but just for mp3's, I think a player is justified. Then again, maybe I'm just being weird or in the minority. I don't understand why anyone would spend 500 for an Archos. I mean, yes, they are cool. Record off tv/dvd/anything without copyrights, but the price...I think I'd rather have a laptop.[xx(]

Set

true, but laptops are also $1000-1500 more for a good one

I think all the Neuros III should be is exactly what the Neuros II is, with a possible color screen, a faster processor, better battery, better interface, standard USB cable (and ability to be charged through it) and much smaller size, and then we will have an absolutely dynamite product.  

Oh, and a way to mod the antenna to work with NCast without voiding a warranty would be nice, but perhaps I'm dreaming :D

------Order #9082 :D

quote:

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Originally posted by Sottilde

I think all the Neuros III should be is exactly what the Neuros II is, with a possible color screen, a faster processor, better battery, better interface, standard USB cable (and ability to be charged through it) and much smaller size, and then we will have an absolutely dynamite product.  

Oh, and a way to mod the antenna to work with NCast without voiding a warranty would be nice, but perhaps I'm dreaming :D

------Order #9082 :D

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I agree with most of what you're saying but I do have a couple of questions:
1)What do you want a color screen for? All this would do is drive the cost up. I, personally, don't care if my music player has a color screen.
2)What do you mean by "better interface"? What would you do differently?

1. I said possible.  Personally I wouldn't like it if it cost a lot, but who knows, if it's cheap, I say do it :)

2. The interface in my eyes has some serious problems.  It's sluggish during NCast, it doesn't remember where you were like the iPod does (which is a bummer, considering how useful that is.  I hate having to scroll through things all over again), you have to go to audio->downdowndown->albums->down->artists instead of artists just being the first option.  It would be great if artists was first, which would show all artists, then once you click one, the first choice would be "All" (which would be all songs by artist), then it would list the albums.  

Oh, and scrolling is a little strange.  When you do fast scrolling, it goes through my list of artists VERY fast, and doesn't do it smoothly, it just skips like 20 at a time.




These are all things fixable by better sync software and some work by either NA or the open source community (GarBage has done great so far).  




Sam

------Order #9082 :D

I'd like to see something like the wheel on the iPod which is used for volume control and seeking and it works wonderfully for those functions. The wheel is also used for scrolling, but I've found that to be a little clumsy. So when it comes to interface changes, I could stand to see some button changes. I don't have any concept images or anything; I'm not that artistic or creative.

quote:

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Originally posted by Zithromax

I'd like to see something like the wheel on the iPod...

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As far as I know, that's patented by Apple.

That's where the "something like" comes into play. I didn't say, "I want the iPod wheel put onto the Neuros." Certainly something that works in a similar, efficient fashion can be done.

attempts to duplicate the idea behind the wheel without ripping it off have been pretty dismal. The scrollwheel on the dellpod is pretty weak and that....that THING on the nomad is heresy. I may be imagining this, but it seems like holding down the joystick works alot better/smoother in the Garbage firmware. For most of my ownership I've relied on pressing FF and RWD to hop from letter to letter, but in the last couple days since I've changed over to the Garbage FW I've been flying through the menus with the stick more often. The more you practice it the more precise you can get with it. The fact of the matter is, that damn clickwheel isn't all that precise either on a huge list. You're always flying by what you want, flying back up to maybe one or two above, and then back down. I've had at least as good results with the stick.

Anyway, that's my $.02

here I is.

Hey, Joe, how about those images you promised a few months back? I would like to look at them and tell you which is best. Also, if anyone else has been cranking on some designs, I'd like to see those too. I haven't been impressed by anything I've seen so far. All of the ideas look like rehashes of the current Neuros design. For shame... I think what we need to go for is something that improves usability.

First, i'm wondering what at least one person meant by:

quote:

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This time around, they better use a standard USB connector.

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It sure seems standard enough for me, its the exact came cable that my Cannon camera uses, i just assumed it was USB's responce to Firewire's mini connector that digital video cameras have...

The pictures are not bad, but I would want neuros to be immediatally distinguable from any other mp3 players out there, so about if you see it across the room you can say 'THAT is a neuros 3 and i know it'

most screens on mp3 players are 3x4 or about, so i'd say make it longer vertically, and as big as possible, so that when you actually do have near 20 gigs on a player (which i doubt 80% of ipod users have) you can see quite a few lines at a time.

one feature that would be incredible would be the ability to have a small cable with a female regular USB A plug on it, and then be able to plug the other end into the neuros 3, and if you put a pen drive into the cable you could transfer things off of it.

I really like the ability of having the removable harddrive, personally i'd really perfer them keeping that feature.
as for pins, there are TONS of ways to protect them very easily.

Like my video card has a cable for inputs and outputs which has tons of pins, and a platic piece that slides up when it is unplugged.  Or make like a cupler for the pins, inside of the case of the harddrive unit, so that its female instead of pins, then the only risk would be getting some sort of crap inside of the holes.  Or some sort of flap that gets pushed up.
in this I'm mostly thinking it would be a dumb harddrive unit, so just a tight case for the harddrive, that plugs into the unit basically how a harddrive plugs into any computer, or modifies it slightly so that it can only be used in the neuros.

It would also be great if they could find a way to cheaply produce a metal case, i've always liked brushed aluminum finish hah.

As for the battery, as long as its realivily simple to replace, then the charge for it won't be much, if you have not checked the price of cellphone batteries, i don't think that cost is worth just being able to manually change the battery.  The cost is obviously due to the fact that they are mostly custom manufactured for each phone model.

but anyways, there are my ideas.

The USB connector on the brain is a standard plug, the one on the USB2 HD isn't, unfortunately.

I disagree with you about keeping the hard disk removable.
But that's just because I don't use the feature I guess.
Anyway, I came up with a nifty idea: just make a regular player with built-in HD. On the bottom of the unit, put a slot covered by some "doors" to protect it. Ideally, this socket is a regular USB2 connection (on the go, ofcourse), in some kind of socket form instead of regular connector type.
That way, you could hook up another HD to the unit, transfer items with a nice menu,... With a couple special slots in the main unit, where the "extra device" can attach (click) itself into.

It's great for expansion, think about the possibilities: want a card reader? extra batterypack perhaps? want a docking station? want whatever-handy-dandy-device-you-want? add a blender and a microwave oven, whatever you like...
Such a thing wouldn't require a lot of extra work, the hardest thing will be to find a suitable place for the slot I guess.

Well here's the N3 pic... or at least my version of it.
This is purely out of my head. my vision of the unit, since no one seems to have any pics yet.
The extra wide screen is to read ebooks, and possibly be touch screen.
which would be really cool since with an open 'PDA-like' GUI it would be a very cool product to organize not only tunes, but also personal data, files and perhaps even display pics with the 4 (or maybe 16) shades of grey.
http://www.fierte.ca/n3.jpg
The joystick is at the lower left like the PSP because a person would be holding it horizontaly.
just having a bit of fun.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rejk
one feature that would be incredible would be the ability to have a small cable with a female regular USB A plug on it, and then be able to plug the other end into the neuros 3, and if you put a pen drive into the cable you could transfer things off of it.

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That would have to be a separate socket on the Neuros with more hardware.  A USB device has to be either a host or client (generally the PC is the host and all else are clients).  To transfer files between 2 clients (ie camera and Neuros) you need an adapter with electronics in it that will appear to be a host to both sides and will somehow determine what files get copied where.  

THere are such things on the market, and the capability could be built into a player.  In the absence of keyboard or mouse, I think they typically just copy all files on device A into a predetermined folder (ie "moved files") on device B, and maybe delete the files from A.

quote:

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I really like the ability of having the removable harddrive, personally i'd really perfer them keeping that feature.
as for pins, there are TONS of ways to protect them very easily.

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The backpack concept along with the 2.5 inch HD are the 2 big reasons the Neuros is in the brick class instead of the Ipod/Iriver size class.  If they are trying to address size, they would not want to skip that shrink opportunity.  

Aside from protecting pins from debris etc, I think the connector they have now is not really suitable for frequent connect/disconnect.  Isn't it an IDE connector which on a laptop would typically be reconnected zero or once in the lifetime of the unit?  Given the history, I would not want to give a determined user any extra method of breaking the player.

Hopefully there is some feedback between service calls on current models and design for the III so they can address hotspots.  

My guess is the "top 3" list of hardware problems would be power and headphone jacks (detached solder tab) and backpack connector (non connecting pins)

-Don

quote:

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Originally posted by Don

quote:

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Originally posted by Rejk
one feature that would be incredible would be the ability to have a small cable with a female regular USB A plug on it, and then be able to plug the other end into the neuros 3, and if you put a pen drive into the cable you could transfer things off of it.

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That would have to be a separate socket on the Neuros with more hardware.  A USB device has to be either a host or client (generally the PC is the host and all else are clients).  To transfer files between 2 clients (ie camera and Neuros) you need an adapter with electronics in it that will appear to be a host to both sides and will somehow determine what files get copied where.

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Lookup the USB On-The-Go (OTG) standard.

USB2 OTG is, or will be, available very soon.

-- 'I switched to Vorbis and saved a bunch on my hard-disk space!'

it is out now, several pdas have it

To all the nay-sayers...enjoy.

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/03/21/32gb_ssd_samsung/

Well I can see that the list has been really active since I've been gone!  ;)
So, what's the latest for the N3... or has it be killed?
RevRon

Yeah I'm with RevRon.
My Neuri is not feeling so peppy lately...
If the Zune wasn't so restrictive you might have lost me yesterday...

What's the word Joe? My wallet is burning for your love  ;D
Don't forget about us stepchildren..

Hey one and all! 
What's happening on the scene for the N3?  Is it trash?
Haven't seen anything in months!