Neuros Technology Forums

I'm sure many of us are tiredly waiting for the N3!  Please give us any updates you can, as it has been a while.  We definitely need a new portable that has the features of the N1 and N2, plus man more modern features.  What can you tell us?

When's the last time anyone has heard definitive news from Neuros?  I own an N1, N2 a recorder, and the 442, and can't wait for the N3 [:D]
 
I'm no marketing expert, but all the features we're waiting for are starting to show up on other platforms.  That by itself wouldn't stop me from waiting for the N3, but when months go by without any updates or email notices, then one wonders how active Neuros really is [8]

To be fair, I'm sure there's many people who are probably testing and helping out, and have a decent idea what is going on.  I just wish the rest of us would get some marketing words of encouragement every now and then.  A good public relations plan might include using the forums for two-way communications [?]

I completely agree. I bought a Neuros II ages ago, it got stolen and then bought another off ebay. Or almost did: the jerk who sold it sold it as a Neuros II when it was actually a I. Then he disappeared. Anyhoo..... I'm almost ready to give up and buy an Archos AV 500 (100GB!!), or even better, the PMA 400 (30GB). That one is crazy! Are you listening Neuros? Wifi, ethernet, infrared, usb, touch screen, email, internet, record wav/mp3 with TOP NOTCH level metering, record video, built-in speaker, built in mic, display pdf, synch with outlook...... runs linux, you can develop software for it..... Sorry - I know I sound like I work for them but come on, Neuros! You haven't said BOO about N3 for AGES! As soon as I can afford it I'm going for one of the above. I need the WAV record function, and the other stuff kicks ass. The would love to spend less for slightly less features, but...

The other day at security checkpoint in the airport the sec guard said "what's that?" I said MP3 player. She said "Hmmm must be a really old one." I tried not to bristle. But its true, its a brick.

Alas, the archos won't play ogg files  :-(

Indeed. No ogg, and doesn't broadcast to FM. Two minuses - large for some. But it's available for purchase!

It's not just the N3, either.  From other posts, the N3 is on the back burner until the next recorder and 442 comes out.  Unless I'm not reading the right forums, there's been no real word on anything for months.  I can't afford to buy something now, and a Neuros later.

I feel like Linus.  "Just wait, Charlie Brown!  The Great Neuros will come up in the sky, offering sales merchandise to every good boy and girl!  Just you wait and see!"

Without some sort of timeline, I can't make any informed decision as to wait or go elsewhere.

I couldn't wait any longer for a new player.  Everybody I knew was getting brand new iPods, Zens, etc.  They were all playing video and viewing their pictures, while I was still stuck with my Neuros II that was twice the size and weight of theirs, had a smaller screen, was greyscale, and hadn't had any firmware updates in months.  I'm sorry to say, but I've switched to an iAudio X5.  I remain a Neuros fan, and may still purchase the N3, but NA is going to have to pull out all the stops to really convert any users at this point.

What about the 442v2?  I realize it's a "PMP" but it's also a great audio player (albeit big).  It's got huge capacity and 96khz/24 bit audio, great recording capability, etc.  Is it the physical size of the device that's not allowing it to be a consideration, or just the marketing?



jborn (at) neurosaudio.com

In my opinion it's both.

The size is definately a minus for an audio player, great for a vid device.

The market is fast passing Neuros by because of lack of responsiveness and timeliness.  

It is a GREAT product I will grant, but getting the word out and the products to market seems to be a snails pace operation.

Sometimes "too many" cooks create a poor dish.  Open source is a great idea, just not in the development stage.  Trying to have everyone give input and design based on that is not a workable idea.  There has to be a workable idea already on the table for it to even have a chance.  There will always be someone who wants something different or reversed or deleted and anything done "by" committee is doomed to failure.  I worked for the phone company many years ago and one of the favorite sayings was, "If you want to kill something, send it to committee."

Blessings,

Rev. Ronald G.

Joe - the 442 would have been a contender for me, and in the right ball park price wise long ago, if you had only included WAV audio recording. As far as I understand, you have only created a device that plays/records Mp3, WMA, and a few other lossy codecs. Not sufficient for semi-serious portable hi-fi recording. Come on, it must be relatively easy to incorporate playback and recording of uncompressed audio.... You don't need any codecs at all!

What marketing?

The only marketing I've seen for the 442v2 is the upgrade policy for buying the original 442.  Maybe these forums aren't the place to get information on products, but I don't know where that place might be, either.  Personally, I don't know if the 442v2 will work for me because, as posted earlier, I have no idea how long the wait might be, what type of pricing it may have, or what the final product will end up being.

Back to one of the original questions, is there a rough ETA for the N3 at all?

I haven't heard of any specfically. I'd like to know also.

Rev. Ronald G.

Seriously Joe, what's the deal?  When's the N3 coming out???  I don't want an Ipod.  I don't want the next greatest gadget.  I just want a damn good, small, mp3 player.  Like  the N2, only smaller ... a lot smaller.  Give us something ... anything ... this year, next year, whatever.  Just feed us a bone of some kind.

I've got an N2 and I love it, but it's just not portable and I hate to admit it, but I'm embarrased by the size of it.  It's also getting long in the tooth and I want a new player and I'd LOVE to get another Neuros, but I'm not going to wait forever.

Please let us in on your schedule.

Carl.

Amen Carl!
I really would like the N3 sooner rather than later!
Ron

Rev. Ronald G.

Has anyone tried out these two recorders: Edirol r-09 and M-Audio Microtrack? They have the very important recording features but record to SD and CF cards. The only problem: its not a decent mp3 player olso.

Well, it's been a month since Joe asked about the 442v2, and nobody from Neuros has been heard from since. [:(]

I could handle the size, but the recording wasn't working too well for my situation.  I record classroom lectures, which are hard to record anyway.  During playback, I have the sound turned up and hear the harddrive cycling every so often.  Lately, I've switched my recording the a Creative Zen.  The recording isn't any better sound-wise, but doesn't have the harddrive cycling (since there's no drive).  Also, it IS much smaller, lasts 8 hours, and has plenty of room for weeks of recording.

I think I'll use my Neuros at home for now on, and just carry a couple of zen players with me for traveling.  It's easier to carry 2 or 3 zens and an extra battery in my pocket than the Neuros with an adapter.

Anyone remember the Amiga computer?  Best 128-meg computer around, could format 4 floppy drives and still multitask!  All this in '87!  They were the best, except for their marketing.  I think Neuros is operating the same way.  So many questions from the die-hard users, and no response.  No exitement.  No more newsletters.  no more ... anything?

Tho_mas - I work at a music store, and have seen the Edirol/Roland recorders go through the stock. They are GREAT portable recorders. Built in stereo condersors and jack for stereo mics, with or without preamps. But I want a player too..... AND a HD for recording.

I'm beginning to think they're trying to quietly phase out the Audio only device.

I've just got an iRiver H140 from ebay at US170. Installed Rockbox as main OS/application and added a few extra packages (like Recording Enhancement Pack).... superb playing capabilities (almost any popular format run smoothly, several lossless ones) and very good recording capabilites.

Try that one till the N3 comes up. Wolf.

It's interesting to note that, as mentioned before, no one from Neuros has responded to our discussion or call for a "bone" on the N3.  It would be nice to have Joe or someone of the "higher ups" tell us what their strategy is, even if it is to NOT release the N3!  I would be OK with that; it's just the not knowing and the waiting for updates that gets me down.
R


Rev. Ronald G.

quote:

---

Originally posted by RevRon
 it's just the not knowing and the waiting for updates that gets me down.

---

QFE

I appoligize for being out of touch on this.  I don't mean to blow you guys off (although I realize that's inadvertantly what I've been doing).  Internally we are trying to decide this very issue.  We are growing our team, both in the US and China to be able to do more products, but at this point, we're still stretched pretty thin.  We keep pushing off the N3 project and even the 442v2 to focus on the R3.  I realize that's not much consolation to the folks on this thread, but it's only fair to give you an honest assesment of the situation.  

Like all of you, as a user, I long for an N3 myself, and I wish I had a better assesment of the schedule at this point, my best guess is that we're looking at mid '07 now.  In the meantime, I will get more information to you regarding the 442v2, which except for the size, could be an excellent solution for most of you (which BTW, will have .wav recording)

jborn (at) neurosaudio.com

My ONLY issue with getting a 442v2 is the lack of NeuroCast.  I use it far too often to be without it.

(Money is a bit of a concern now, too, now that I have a shiny new MacBook Pro, but such is life.)

I don't want a 442V2 because I don't want something that big, my N2 is big enough.  I'm interested in the Audio not the Video, so the 442 doesn't hold any spark for me.

I'm bummed that we aren't going to see anything significant until mid-2007, but as they say, "Better late than never!"

Thank you Joe, I wish we could make it get created sooner, but that's not the reality (yet).



Rev. Ronald G.

I agree with the good reverend.  Like I said before, all I want is a good, SMALL, audio player - and I LOVE the neurocast.  I have no interest in buying a pmp, so the 442 holds no value to me.

Thanks for responding Joe, but I'm still disappointed it's going to take that long for a new player.

Carl.

Anyone else feel, sort of, betrayed... Let down.

They hyped up the Neuros 3 in fall of 2005, with all of the head-fi forums and what not, made it seem like it was so close to being developed and then...  PUT ON THE BACK BURNER!

Lets think...  They have released (correct me if I am wrong) the recorder 1 and 2, the 442 and will release the 442v2, the R3, and maybe even the Vdrive all between the time they released the N2 and released the N3?  That is pretty ridculous. I believe the audio player was the product that started it all, right?  

It seems they have delayed the vitally necessary N3, to release the not even remotely as necessary 442v2 and the R3.  Think about it:  The 442 is fine as a media player for now, and the R2 is fine also.  The N2 is leaps and bounds behind recent developments.  I am getting sick and tired for getting ridiculed for carting a brick everywhere I go. And when a ray of light was shinning from the N3 they snuffed it!  It seems a lot of people are talking about potentially letting go and puting their money in another companies player because they simply cannot wait any longer...

Has the N3 missed its biggest window?

(I know... I am pretty cynical and upset. I have put a lot faith in this company for a while, but it seems they set the wrong priorities)

I just hope I can control myself long enough to wait for the N3 because it SOUNDS simply amazing...

hmm...glad that is off my chest. it is time to cool down...

Delaying the N3 until 2007 essentially takes DI out of the portable audio player market.  Due to the projected release date, the N3 will have to be completely re-designed anyways, dut to changes in available technology.

I'm happy with my N2 for now, and honestly don't care what anyone else thinks about the size of my player.  The problem for DI is that when it comes time to buy a replacement, with a release date for the N3 so far away, there is little chance that I'll wait for the N3, I'll just buy something that's available NOW.

Todd

Sorry to be "dense" Todd, but what is DI?

Rev. Ronald G.

Sorry, old habit.  The company name used to be Digital Innovations.

http://reviews.cnet.com/Digital_Innovations_Neuros_HD_20_GB/4505-6490_7-20761164.html

Todd

I think there was a great advantage being an early innovator, and I love the neurocast feature, but there's no perceived advantage to entering the market last.  NeurosAudio must believe the R3 will have a better profit margin if they can get it finished.

At least we know, and now we can make better consumer decisions.  Like Todd and mrchyles, I'll just have to wait and see if the N3 is better than the other players I have at the time (so far, an N1, N2, and two creative zens, and will begin looking for a slimmer 40G player).  We'll still use the N1 and N2, but may not need anything the N3 has to offer a year from now.

Who knows?  Maybe the timeline will improve over the next few months ...

Rick

mrchyles said it perfectly and I totally agree with him.  I feel 'betrayed'.  I've been checking these forums almost daily for news about the N3 for the past year and now we find out it's going to be 'at least' another year.  In my experience this means at least another 6 months after that.

So, mrchyles, I think you're right: neuros is missing a great opportunity right now and the technology will have changed so much in a year+ that it will have to be totally re-designed (e.g. the way things are going, 10-20GB flash players are going to be the norm by that time).

I think I'm going to have to do the unthinkable and get a ipod.  Ah well, I think waiting a year for vapor-ware is long enough.

Carl.

Being one of the "long time" advocates and supports of Neuros regarding the N3, sadly I have to agree with you Carl.  [:(]

It appears that the N3 is dead and will not be a viable instrument in our possession any time soon, if ever.  With all the delays and the focus being on equipment that doesn't truly fit the Audiophiles need or desire, I'm sorry to add my energy to the switching from the N3 to other available players.  [V]

I will keep watching and be interested in seeing how Neuros addresses this "opportunity" for development; however, since there is no meaningful growth in the direction of developing the N3, I am going to start researching other viable options. [?]

Do you really think that a 10 or 20 GB flash player will be available and reasonable soon?  That would be a very interesting development!  Imagine the size and the design you could have.  I know there are players that are using SD chips and I know some of those are fairly large in capacity.  I think that would be a nice option to the "Backpack HD".  [8)]

Rev. Ronald G.

If NA really did care to release the N3, it would have been done by now. I doubt it's a personal attack on former Neuros owners or for just not caring. They probably think that there is greater interest in the general market for the Recorder or the 442 than the Neuros and therefore, they can make more money. I personally couldn't care less about the 442 or the recorder and I too noticed how many other things they have made since the last Neuros. At this rate I doubt the N3 will ever exist. I recommend everyone just buy something else. There's a lot of options out there and there's probably something that will work for you.

Reverend,

In a year -> year and a half, there will be even more options than there are now.  Here's an example:

http://reviews.cnet.com/4531-10921_7-6535687.html

And we should also have bluetooth built in (imagine bluetooth headphones ... no wires ... mmmmmm).

Carl.

As bummed as I was to hear JB say the N3 is at least another year away, I do appreciate that he was honest about it. I think it's got to be so hard for any company to compete with the iPod. Most folks have no idea what an "MP3 player" is, but at the same time, they all know about the iPod. And that's what they buy and that's what they buy their kids, etc, etc. Heck, people ask if my NII is an iPod all the time! I also think most of those people say the sound from theirs is great. Whatever; some of us do know the difference. I love my NII, but I want to get my hands on the N3 as much as everyone else here. I'm pretty sure I am going to wait for it too. I'm not happy about this news, but what are we going to do? I guess buy a different player, complain a little more or wait it out. DI knows there are a bunch of us waiting, but they have to run a business. I just hope they decide to offer that trade-in deal for those of us who have been waiting for so long.

(mdt)

After the initial shock of the time delay and the lack of information about the status, I too was pleased that Joe was honest and coming out with a timeframe.  I also know that the timeframe can shift; maybe longer and maybe shorter (I pray that it will be shorter.)  After all, who knows what the future holds and with all the work being accomplished on the 442 and the R3, the N3 could be right around the corner!

I too will wait for the N3.  I will appreciate it much, MUCH more when I get it because the potential of it will be greater the longer we wait for it.  Look at how fast the computer industry is growing and developing; the N3’s technology will advance just as rapidly.  I know the market share might not be as great, but then again, word-of-mouth can do a lot for a product, and loyal "fans" of Neuros can really generate a lot of positive energy!  Let's all start focusing on the "best" N3 that the Neuros Team can, and will, create.  By holding that vision in our "collective consciousness" we'll create the environment for a perfect mp3 player to come out soon.  Also, by keeping up beat and positive, we can generate "good vibes" that will go out into the Universe and create that perfect N3 sooner rather than later.  (Yes, I'm a New Thought minister and we look for the good in everything! [:D])


Rev. Ronald G.

Ahh, the religion of "healthy-mindedness". Let's change our experience by changing our thinking. Good vibes never hurt anyone. So maximize your potential and vibe away Rev! I'll do the same.

It really does pain me to dissapoint you guys.  As you know, I take this stuff very personally.  I also recognize that many of you would feel "abandon," and believe me, that factored very heavily into our thinking.  There was an enormous amount of thought and discussion (more of which should have been online but it just happened to be in-person meetings, etc).

In a nutshell, all of us agree that there continues to be a great unserved area of the market for the N3.  And the MP3 market is absolutely massive.  The real trouble is that the standard for success is really "masterpiece." The iPod is on Gen 5 now and they've squeezed every cubic millimeter out of the thing, not to mention the effort that's gone into the firmware and software (and iTMS).  

None of that is said to mean that we can't compete.  We're all firm beilevers that we can.  There's a good chunk of users that just want drag and drop and to eliminate iTunes altogether, a good chunk don't want to iTMS either, etc. etc.  There's no question that we don't need (or want) to duplicate what Apple (or the rest of the market) is doing.  At the same time, we do need to have parity with them on a lot of areas and that's simply not something we currently have the resources to do.  The Recorder and 442 are growing our business and allowing us to add those resources.  The 442 was just a lot easier to develop because we're using the housing and mechanical that the factory had already built.  Again, that housing is solid and high quality and adequate, but hardly the masterpiece level required for the N3.

It's painful, and more painful for me than anyone, I can promise that, but I do believe it's the right thing to do.  I won't say there aren't other alternatives, there are, but overall I believe this is the right choice.

jborn (at) neurosaudio.com

Wow.  Thanks for the heartfelt update Joe.  I believe that's all we were asking for was just some sort of understanding behind the slow development of the N3.  After reading that comment, I'm going to hold off purchasing another mp3 player for a while (heck I've waited this long =) and will keep monitoring the forums because I really do want to buy a Neuros masterpiece.

Carl.

I agree with Carl, Joe!

Thank you for your input and unwavering support in the quest for a perfect MP3 player.  Neuros truly is a "Masterpiece" on all levels, and just like the masterpieces of old which took time to create, the N3 will be a classic as well! [8)]

Rev. Ronald G.

Ya know, I still have and love my N1.  Battery still chugging away and sounds as good as ever.  As I'm a roadwarrior and travel weekly I get sniggers from the iPOD guys all the time...unil they hear my ogg vorbis playback through the Bose NC headphones.  I'm kinda unique in my electronics buying.  I tend to use stuff until it's broken.  Then I buy something new.  Waiting for N3 seems like a good way to go for me too.

What's that oshifer? I swear dat light wuz ernch.

I feel 'ya Joe. You got to do what you got to do. If Neuros can't stay afloat, then there will be no N3 to look forward to. Thanks for the updates though. Like the rest of us here, I eagerly await the unveiling of the N3, but I really can't complain about my NII. I used to complain about the size, but I'm over it. I love the thing! I use it daily and will, proudly, continue to. All I ask is that you leave us a note, every now and again, to let us know what's up with the N3.  - Thanks

Yes please do keep us updated from time-to-time Joe and let us know you're still thinking about the N3, even though it might not be a in the front most portion of your agenda.  There are some diehards in this N3 Group, me being the "hardest", so know we're still out here anticipating!


Rev. Ronald G.

Joe,

You know, if a lot of these design choices are happening in meetings and you'd like to share them with everyone online, why not podcast design meetings?  Set up a topic header so responses can go under each respective "episode"?

I'd say "Neurocast" it, but that's something entirely different and cooler.  :P

Thanks again Joe for the post. I still have my Neuros I and love it. I've dropped it a few times. Use it almost everyday at work. Again if the other things 422 and recorder are making you guys money to support the N3, then I say go ahead with them. I personally see no market myself for them. But who am I. I'll wait for the N3. Look forward to future post. Thanks again.

What are you looking at?

I'm certainly up for doing that, and frankly now adays the bulk of our meeting stuff is online, although if we have in person meetings, I'm happy to tape or video or whatever.  I've been doing that for presentations (including one I gave tonight) not I'm looking for someone to help transcode, edit!

I'm the one who lobbied for including SPDIF-in on the N3 and more recently posted a rant on the N3 wiki discussion page.  I hope you guys don't get upset but I now think the N3 project should be abandoned.  With the new projected date, the N3 will be obsolete before it is introduced.  HD audio players in general are already in their last throes.  Flash memory is in the $10/GB range, 8GB SD cards and 16GB CF cards are starting to show up on ebay (still $$$$), and there's soon going to be no market left for a non-video HD player.  And video means big, power-hungry screens and batteries.  The N3 successor (call it NX) should be a flash player.

That the iPod is in its 5th generation doesn't mean it's all refined or evolved, it just means Apple is pathetic taking this long to get it right.  Sony got the cassette Walkman essentially right on the first try in the 1970's, digital watches had some technological evolution since LED's but they matured quickly when LCD's came out; cassette and CD portables haven't changed much in the past 20 years and neither have watches.  The portable digital audio player (DAP) is not that complex a product and it should be mature too.  That means Neuros can and should be making DAP's designed to still be in use 20 years from today.  Well, ok, make it 10 years since tech development has sped up so much, but this is still doable.  1980's vintage cassette walkmen are still viable.  The characteristics of a mature DAP are (to me) exceedingly obvious, but EVERY manufacturer is choosing to screw up one thing or another in the name of product differentiation.  Stop with that, just do a straightforward implementation of the obvious stuff and gain differentiation by making a high quality product.  Inspirations in the digital world should include the HP-12C calculator (1990's), the Canon S100 digital camera (circa 2000), and the basic Casio digital watch, all of which are still quite usable (as in, there's not that much reason to upgrade one you already own, even if current technology is better).  In the audio world, look to the Sony TC-D5M portable cassette recorder plus the obvious Walkmen and Ipods.  Look also at the Archos Jukebox series with Rockbox firmware.  Let us figure out the characteristics of the NX:

1) power: this is a no brainer, it MUST run on AA cells, or AAA's if size is critical.  No lithium ion.  There are many 1990's DAT recorders and laptop computers collecting dust because the proprietary nicad packs are now unavailable or not worth the cost.  The NX should preferably run on one AA, like the Cowan/iAudio G3 or the iRiver T10.  It should be designed to run satisfactorily on every AA from NiMH to crap-quality zinc-carbon AA's (the most common battery in the world). The player's form factor should be like the Cowon G3 mentioned above, which is business card sized x 2/3" thick or so.  The iRiver T10 is also interesting and different.  If you absolutely need higher internal voltage and can't use a dc-dc converter (analog noise or whatever) then use two AAA's.  If you want, include an internal NiMH charger powered by the USB port.  Finally, look at (but don't imitate) the Sandisk Sansa M260, a 4GB player built like a cheap digital watch.  Again, with the exception of some firmware issues, the M260 is an example of maturity: we could easily imagine the same player being sold for $14.95 in a few years once its internal flash memory (it has 4GB) is essentially free.  The NX should have similar principles but much higher build quality.

2) Basic features: see the Frontier Lab Nexblack which is finally out.  Frontier has screwed up execution (thing is a year late) but basically have the right idea: high quality analog audio section, relatively powerful headphone amp, FM tuner, and a CF slot.  These days I'd say SD is acceptable (CF seems on its way out; SD is more rugged and keeps size down).  But expandability is a must.  I'd suggest two SD slots, giving 16GB total capacity with today's 8GB cards.  Maybe one slot could be internal to save space.  Skip UI gimmicks, just use Rockbox, with the most frequently used controls on good physical hardware switches, not GUI widgets or dinky membrand buttons.  The Nexblack uses two AA's and is fairly power hungry, but I think that's because it uses old electronics.  The G3 and the T10 get ~40 hours on one AA and should be examined as an example of how to do this stuff.

3) Special feature: one thing every DAP should have is active noise cancellation, which is getting more popular in specialized headphones.  But it should be built into the player unit instead, so you can use your favorite headphones or earbuds.  I posted to the wiki about how to do this.  This is an essential feature for listening on public transport or airplanes, without having to crank the volume to ear damaging levels.  It should practically be legislated into players.

I'll add some more to this later, I have to go do some stuff.

Definately an interesting and unique post.  Right now, I'm personally focused on the OSD and 442v2 and can't raise my head enought to think much about the N3, but this is definately a "bookmark and put to the side" post.  I don't agree with all of it, but there are definately some good points.

i'm trying to get people movivated for it - but its not working

its on the backburner, until the 442v2 is out.

We're motivated, just not able at this time.  Take a look at how dissapointed the 442 folks are now because of delays there...

I agree with all the suggestions that Phr said here.  

I get near satisfaction with my iAudio G3.  The only problems with it are that it uses the Sigmatel STMP-3520 (an outdated DSP that can't really make full use of more than 1.25GB of storage capacity), it doesn't have any expansion capability (an enclosed compartment for SD-cards would be preferable), and its firmware updates are not drag-n-drop.

If Neuros could recreate the G3 but with the above-mentioned differences, I wouldn't need any other personal audio device.

Why is it you fanboy, obsessive-posters are always such doomsayers? Yes the N3 is going to come out much later than everyone hoped. Yes everyone, including Joe, is dissapointed about it. But that doesn't mean that the N3 will be a complete loss when it does arrive. Keep in mind, the N1 and N2 were a bit behind their competitors in some ways when they arrived on the scene and Neuros still convinced you guys to buy them. On the forums I hear a lot of talk about NCast being the most favored/desired feature from the N1/2s. For me, it was the OGG support, Linux support, and overall versatility of the player that sealed the deal. I liked NCast but more as a novelty, I use tape adapters when I'm in my car and it's not like there aren't iTrip and similar accessories for everyone else.

The new line of products that NT is developing is going to be Open Source from the beginning which will attract a lot of attention from the growing Linux community. I'm lucky enough to have an OSD developer sample and it's a very promising device. Yes, there are other mp3 players out there, there always have been. But, when the N3 does come out you will be sorry if you didn't wait for it. Even while OGG Vorbis continues to gain popularity there are very few portable devices that support it. FLAC support is even harder (if not impossible) to find. Neuros is taking the time they need to create a solid, finised product. They're too smart to rush to market with something that is only half-baked at best. The reality is "first-to-market" mentality is the primary source of bad products and we all hold Neuros to a pretty high standard. Just tell your iPodding freind that the N3 is wourth waiting for because it really is THAT much better (and you won't be lying either).

Finally, I'd like to say that as with any OpenSource project... Instead of comming to the forums every day to complain, fix it yourself. The more help NT gets with the OSD the faster we'll see the 442v2 and N3. These products are all being developed on the same core hardware so the work being done now for the OSD is the foundation of what will become the N3. Notice how no one answered Joe's call-to-arms to help him program the OSD but everyone wants to pester him about the release date of the N3? Even if you're not a programmer or not good programmer, visit #neuros and find out what you can do to help move things along and improve the product for everyone.

To Dragonwisard - the N3 issue isn't lateness, it's that technology changes over time.  The original 5GB Archos Jukebox was a breakthrough product and a huge success when it came out.  Those days are gone now.  Imagine the yawns if Neuros were to launch a 1 pound, 5GB hard drive player today.  Well, larger hard drive players (e.g. 30GB) are still interesting today, but my claim is that by a year from now, flash will be cheap enough that every HD audio player will be silly.  So, continuing development on such a player that won't be ready for a year is out of step with where technology and the market is going.

Also, re it being an "open source product", the issue isn't the software, it's the hardware.  Yes I'd love to have an open source audio player that I could put my own codecs (ogg, flac, etc.) on.  Remember though that I'm viewing the N3 as an audio player, something to listen to while coding or driving, NOT a video player, I don't care at all about video; video capability imposes hardware requirements in terms of cpu speed, power-hungry backlit color displays, and the battery systems needed to run all that.  Maybe it's just me, but watching a movie on a 2 inch screen is IMO totally unattractive and if I ever buy a video system, it's going to use a DLP projector so the picture fills a whole wall.  (Or maybe it could use those LCD eyeglass thingies).  Anyway that gets way off-topic regarding the N3.

For the N3/NX to make sense as a pure-audio product, it should not sacrifice any battery power or hardware size to implement video features that an audio-only player no use for.  The Cowon G3, already considered an obsolete player, is years ahead of the hypothetical N3 in terms of power consumption--it runs 40 hours on one AA cell (and yes, the G3 plays Vorbis, though not FLAC).    So I'm suggesting to Joe that any forthcoming Neuros audio player should be AA-powered and use flash instead of a HD.  That is a matter of hardware, not programming.  I realize Joe's plate is full and audio devices are backburnered at Neuros and that's ok.  But no contribution that I could make to OSD software development will get the audio hardware out the door any sooner.  All I can do is make suggestions about what the audio hw should be like when Neuros eventually has resources available to build it.

I was hoping to upgrade my N2, this year ....

The following is what I envisioned the N3 to be (close anyways)...
http://neonumeric.com/prod_nto_en.html
Supports flash, builtin transmitter etc etc

I havent been able to find them in north america (unless you chance the international sellers on ebay)

phr, I disagree with your statement about Flash.

While it's true that the cost of Flash memory has been decreasing, to say that it will make HD obsolete in the next year or even the next 3 years is unrealistic. Flash is nice, but it's not perfect, and it's not going to get THAT cheap any time soon either. Unless you can show me a 60GB Flash (some of us want more than 10 songs) player that is priced competitively with similar HD alternatives, I don't consider Flash to be a viable alternative.

I completely agree that the N3 should focus on Audio first and foremost. However I think the platform is capable of much more and we should take advantage of that so long as it doesn't degrade the quality of the primary function (which is Audio). Most of the hardware (cpu, memory, etc) has already been set in stone. Yes it might cost us some battery life, but flash isn't the only thing that's coming down in price. In a year we'll have better, cheaper batteries available.

Two years ago if i told you there would be mp3 players with 8 gigs of flash memory would you have believed that?  Of course not.  In 3 years the HDD Mp3 player will be dead, flash will have reached a storage level that will equal or surpass any hard drives you can fit into a player.

How is mid-'07 looking now, Joe?

Neuros is starting to dig itself in a hole, at least in the N 3 department.  There seems to be way too much talk about what it should be and not enough of producing it.  There hasn't been much word from anyone lately about the progress, and I hope that means they are busy working and don't have the time to respond...  Especially with the trekstor vibez just being released.  That player seems to satisfy some of the people waiting for the neuros 3.  I think it has been almost two years of talking about the N 3 and seeing nothing for it.  I want to see a unit, something that shows some progress.  So far it seems the extent of our patience and input is only found on paper; a list of what we want and a list of what neuros says they will produce, but haven't yet.  Two years is a long time, especially with nothing to show for it.  I need something soon to restore my faith, even if is just a date.  I am getting restless for buying a new player.  My Karma just retired itself permanently, my iaudio m3 is down to two hours battery life, my neuros one has been dead for a long time.  I am trying to wait for summer to purchase a player, if my m3 lasts that long, and it seems to be between the vibez, iaudio x5, and hopefully the N3.  I would even be willing to wait a little longer, as long as I got some definitive date. 

Any news Joe?  Even if it is disappointing news...

I'm resisting the X5L because of its battery.  The only hard disk audio player I'd buy right now is the long-discontinued Archos Jukebox Recorder 20, available on ebay used for $100 or so with 20gb disk.  It can run open source software (Rockbox).  It uses standard batteries (4aa NiMH with internal charger).  It uses a standard 2.5" laptop hard disk, i.e. it's expandable to 160gb (maybe 200gb) today, probably 300gb by end-2007.  Given that 16gb flash cards are available today, there's no point messing with the hassle and power consumption of a hard disk if it's just a wimpy 30gb or 60gb.  I feel likely to pull the trigger for a 16gb Nexblack in the next few weeks though, depending on whether a certain hoped-for improvement to my finances comes through. 

It sounds like nothing's been happening with the N3, which is just as well.  I can't understand Dragonwisard's point that What else is there for the N3 to do besides audio?  The only thing I can think of is video, which requires a power-hungry screen, which in turn mean special batteries, which definitely degrades the device as an audio player.  I -refuse- to buy any audio player that needs proprietary batteries.  I  -only- want to buy a player that uses AA's or AAA's.  If a mid-2007 N3 has a HD and uses some reasonably standard, user replaceable lithium battery then I suppose I'll consider it out of solidarity but it will be a big minus.  "Reasonably standard" means it's used by some popular model of cellular phone or digital camera, so replacement batteries are available from lots of different suppliers and will stay available for many years.  I'd still much rather have flash and AA's though.  For now, I don't feel I need more than 16gb capacity in an audio player, and would far prefer flash to a HD at that level despite the cost premium.  Keep in mind that while flash costs more than a HD, it makes the rest of the unit cheaper by getting rid of the lithium battery and charger.

I just don't see what's so hard about this.  Really, it's almost an industry conspiracy that nobody is making a sensible DAP right now.  That means G3 sized, powered by 1AA or 1AAA (makes player thinner), with a monochrome display, low power consumption, and an SDHC slot (8GB SDHC-2 cards are $129.95 at Newegg as of today).  Better yet, two SD slots, giving 16gb capacity today (with bigger cards coming) and allowing copying from one slot to the other (product differentiation, heh heh).  Google "minty mp3" to see how simple a basic DAP can be.  I'd make one of those myself except it has no display.  The Minty player already has a CF slot--just adding a display and replacing the CF with two SD's (or heck, leaving it CF) doesn't sound like a multi-year engineering project.  The firmware (Rockbox) is already done, you just need to use a Rockbox-capable cpu and mp3 chip and connect up some buttons and stuff.

Another player that I'm amazed nobody makes is a DVD-MP3 audio player, basically the Giga MP3 feature found in some car stereos.  This is the basic, ancient, butt-standard MP3 CD player as made by Panasonic and every other company, powered by AA cells, but using a DVD drive instead of a CD drive, so you can have 8.5 GB of music on one disc (dual layer DVD+R).  Yeah there are portable DVD players but they all have video playback which means color screens and, you guessed it, proprietary lithium batteries.  I'm talking about an audio-only player that uses AA's.  I guess it's not Neuros's approach, but I wish somebody would make this.

Just checking in to see if there are any new developments in the N3 department, as it is now the first quarter of 07.  I've had my N2 for 2+ years now, and absolutely love it, but I'm seriously thinking of upgrading. I'm looking at the new Wolverine Data 120GB ESP as a replacement, which will also help out with on the go photo storage.  None of the others will do as much, and size has never been my main issue anyways, or else I would not have bought the N2.   I keep waiting for updated news for the N3, and it seems to keep getting pushed back, and pushed back, and pushed back.  What's the deal with the N3, can someone please tell me?  It seems that Neuros Tech can only focus on one project at a time, and right now it's the OSD.  That's fine, but please don't keep stringing us along.  I need a bigger storage volume than my 80GB will provide.  All info will be appreciated, as I should have the tax refund soon, and will be making my decision.  :-)  Thanks.

On January 4 one of the sites moderators, the Inernet Chef,  stated: "Well as the looks of it, we have no plans right now for the Neuros III, we are concentrating on the Neuros OSD. "

Wow... now I know what I'm doing this weekend.  Maybe this will dull the pain I feel over my years-long N3-deprivation.

Also, on the HDD issue... as long as it's in a separate cradle, who cares about the weight?  If you're carrying it in your pocket, don't take the cradle.  If you're on a road-trip or dj-ing, then who cares about a couple of lbs of weight??  ...and if you really do care, then don't use it!  Even a 2.5" HDD isn't enough to hold all the tunes in my stash or those of most of my friends.

Joe, please hurry...

If you don't care about the weight, why mess with a dedicated audio player at all?  Bring a laptop computer, maybe one with dual hard disks, or an N2, or get one of those 3.5" media player HD enclosures and control it with a PDA.  You can even put a 750 GB SATA drive in some of those, I think.