Print Page - Attn Joe B, Derek, FJ -- please share with your...

...gamma testers what the anticipated release date is for the 442v2. We don't need an exact day but could you at least provide us with some idea of when we will be able to upgrade our existing unit? This summer? this fall? 2007?

Many of us agreed to participate in the Gamma Program and to provide Neuros with the kind of feedback about the 442 that only a large # of consumers can provide. At the time we purchased the 442, we were led to believe that the 442 would be upgraded in a couple different ways. First, via firmware updates that improved the functionality of the device based upon bugs/wishes reported by the testers. Second, that a major upgrade of the 442 to an open source version would be available within 6 months. Neither of those promises has been met and many of us could live with that IF there was open communication about the status of the 442v2.

Continuing to ignore your own test group by choosing not to respond on these forums only serves to disenfranchise your core audience from the Neuros brand. We're hear to help, we've offered help, advice, our experiences. We appreciate the upgrade offer that was promised but all the good will Neuros has garnered to date is quickly being lost as more and more of your gamma testers are becoming frustrated with the lack of response. Your lack of response is insulting to our intelligence and a huge deviation from your stated "fanatical desire to keep [y]our customers happy." I think the vast majority of your testers have tried to be as patient as possible. It would be nice if you would simply let us know the status of the 442v2 and it's anticipated arrival date.

regards,
Mark

quote:
Originally posted by kcmark
what the anticipated release date is for the 442v2. We don't need an exact day but could you at least provide us with some idea of when we will be able to upgrade our existing unit? This summer? this fall? 2007?

The OSD (which used to be called the R3) is going to be coming up for a "Gamma" launch[1] "in about a month (end of July)". The boards and software for that and the 442v2 are being developed simultaneously.

There is more status information on the Neuros blog[2] about the OSD. And, as I understand it, the dev boards for the OSD and the 442v2 have been shipped out and the software is being written. The "final" boards for the OSD and the 442v2 sound like they are pretty much finalized on paper. I would guess probably this fall for the 442v2.

I don't work at Neuros, this is just what I get from reading the blog[2] and following the discussion on the google group[3].

[1] http://open.neurosaudio.com/node/285
[2] http://open.neurosaudio.com/
[3] http://groups.google.com/group/Neuros-DM320Hardware

l8rZ

I also posted an update here http://open.neurostechnology.com/node/290 but you are definitely right, we have been extremely remiss in our communication on that, and I apologize. One of the reasons is also a part of the solution. As our website has grown, and the amount of content has grown considerably, it has become increasing disconnected. Because the updates and such on open.neurostechnology.com are not making it to the home page, only a fraction of users are receiving it. Further as there become more and more mediums for information, it's easier to have information "slip through the cracks" so to speak. As a good example, I have not been nearly as involved in the forums, lately and so much of that information has been getting lost. It was actually Derek that directed me to this post.

So what's the solution, well we feel we need some tools to better integrate all the content that's available on Neuros and make sure it gets disseminated well. Please take a look at http://wiki.neurostechnology.com/index.php/Website_Reorganization for some information on how we plan on correcting this. And also some explanation on why some of us have not been spending more time on the forums.

Finally, we internally have been as frustrated as you at the pace of the 442v2 and are having considerable discussion about why that's happened and what can be done about it. Most of all what we can do to insure that future communications are more accurate.

jborn (at) neurosaudio.com

Hey Joe!

Its nice for you to apologize but it would be even nicer for you to give guidance and set some reasonable expectations for future buyers and gamma program partecipants.

In the google group all the talk is about the OSD which looks like the next generation recorder. Does it use the same board and software as the next 442 ? Or once the OSD is done there will be another 6 months for SW development of the 442 ?

The schedule table you attached to your blog post seems to indicate MP (manufacturing prototype ??) to be ready by october, but no information about software. If it is indeed a manufacturing prototype and everything works well, can we expect the new 442 within a couple of months after that (lets say december)?? Will you schedule slip again by more than 6 months as it has this far ??

It has been almosy a year since the woot launch and there seems to be no end in sight. Will the woot buyers like me still be able to exchange their 442v1 with a new 442v2 at no extra charge ?

Is there a schedule for the SW development that you can make public and mark progress ? What about some pictures of the prototypes and screenshots ? This kind of info would fit perfectly within your pledge of being more open when communicationg with your users.

cheers

--A

A few of the next generation products will use the board that is being developed for the OSD. So the work that is being done now will greatly speed 'time to market' of later products. The 442v2 software was being worked on and talked about a lot before the OSD came about. It has been put on the back burner until the OSD is up and running a little more.

The 442v1 exchange is still valid.

I cannot give you a schedule right now, but maybe Joe can.

There is a new neuros custom site that has a review on the OSD, it has screenshots, firmware, and other stuff. This is a site for custom applications and should help bring the community togeather a little more. check it out here:

www.firelikethis.com

When I was a kid my mom used to tell me that curiosity killed the cat...What she forgot to tell me was that it also discovered the cat, invented the lightbulb, and forged the Neuros

Derek and Joe, Thank you for the replies. Prior to my post I had already stumbled upon http://open.neurostechnology.com and read Joes' update there. Unfortunately, that post on Joe's blog, as well as the replies posted in this thread, do not answer the primary question posed which is WHEN IS THE 442v2 going to be released? We have still been given virtually nothing in terms of an official release date. It is now mid-August -- has Neuros hit its production deadlines as laid out on the
open.neurostechnology.com?? Or is everything backed up even further? It doesn't seem like 4th Qtr 2006 is even a remote possibility for a release of the 442v2 so when, if at all, in 2007 do you expect to release the upgrade?

BTW, Joe's link to http://wiki.neurostechnology.com/index.php/Website_Reorganization suggests to me that Neuros is spending WAY too much time on secondary (or more likely tertiary) issues like this thesis on the website organization and not enough time on product development, product support and customer support.

Absent a definitive answer to this follow-up post I think myself and several of us Woot devotees will package up our 442's and send them back. Other options are hitting the market now (ie - Archos AV500) and don't seem to have the software or hardware problems that the current Gamma 442 has. All were asking for is a straight answer with some sort of deadline. Waffling on the deadline or on the state of production for the 442 causes justifiable concern about the future viability of the product. Anyway, my 2 cents. Look forward to your reply.

best regards,
Mark

I have tried really hard to be patient and keep the faith but Im getting frustrated with Neuros at this point.

I have been really surprised and disapointed by the lack of community and open and honest communication from Neuros to Gamma Testers on these Fourms.
Gamma testers have pleaded for information and updates yet nothing substantial has been forthcoming to date.
The sense of direction seems to be approaching a Failed experiment status from a Gamma testers perspective and still Neuros makes little or no effort to even attempt to turn this perception around.

Im not involved in the developer google group but do keep up by reading the latest posts and the focus has all moved to the OSD with little or no talk about the 442.
From the Reading of these areas i get the general sense of a disfunctional development project.

quote:
Originally posted by JEFFH

Im not involved in the developer google group but do keep up by reading the latest posts and the focus has all moved to the OSD with little or no talk about the 442.
From the Reading of these areas i get the general sense of a disfunctional development project.

I am not involved much either, but I do read what I can. One thing, as I understand it, is that the software for the OSD, 442v2 and N3 are all going to be the "same" with minor modifications to the interface. The internals are all going to be running the same software. So any work on getting the OSD production ready means that the 442v2 and the N3 are also getting closer to being ready.

That said, I am hoping I can get a new 442v2 before mid-november because we have a week long trip planned and I want the 100 gig one to take with me :-)

l8rZ

quote:
Originally posted by JEFFH

I have tried really hard to be patient and keep the faith but Im getting frustrated with Neuros at this point.

I have been really surprised and disapointed by the lack of community and open and honest communication from Neuros to Gamma Testers on these Fourms.
Gamma testers have pleaded for information and updates yet nothing substantial has been forthcoming to date.
The sense of direction seems to be approaching a Failed experiment status from a Gamma testers perspective and still Neuros makes little or no effort to even attempt to turn this perception around.

Im not involved in the developer google group but do keep up by reading the latest posts and the focus has all moved to the OSD with little or no talk about the 442.
From the Reading of these areas i get the general sense of a disfunctional development project.

Not so much disfunctional as we just bit off more than we could chew and we're having trouble keeping up with our promises. I'm scheduling an online meeting on the IRC channel (there's a web client on OdNT so you can all participate) and we'll post logs talking about our resources and such, and then I'll post something more helpful on the schedule after that. The OSD has been slower than we expected and that's pushed everything back.

jborn (at) neurosaudio.com

Quote from: JoeBorn on August 19, 2006, 07:36:08 PM

We're going to have an open meeting online to discuss this. You are all welcome to attend and ask questions. I'll post more after that.
details on http://open.neurostechnology.com/node/332 (http://open.neurostechnology.com/node/332) you can participate by going to our web IRC site: http://open.neurostechnology.com/cgiirc/

I missed the live meeting but went and looked at the log and there was very little discussion or information about the 442V2 presented.
From what was posted It looks like you have a schematic for the 442v2 but thats as far as it has progressed.
Everyone seems to be working the OSD and The one person working on the 442v2 was also pulled off to work the OSD.

The Main question we have all been asking still remains unanswered.
When is the projected ship date of the 442v2 upgrade to the Gamma group?

The Original paid discounted upgrade for the Gamma group sounded good last year.
Today however you can buy a more advanced full featured PMP/PMR right now for less than the Gamma group paid for the very limited feature 442 we have now.
New software updates and improvements have stopped and its just sitting gathering dust now as it not a very usable platform in the current state for what I require.
Im guessing the 442v2 likely won't be available for another 6-12 months at the Earliest.
Does Neuros plan to revise the upgrade offer?

Quote from: JoeBorn on August 19, 2006, 07:36:08 PM

We're going to have an open meeting online to discuss this. You are all welcome to attend and ask questions.

I LOVE this:

[16:53]    <AmericanTechpush>    Was there a meeting about the 422 today?
[16:54]    <JoeBorn>    AmericanTechpush: very brief.
[16:54]    <JoeBorn>    it was fairly anti-climactic for a couple reasons
[16:55]    <JoeBorn>    first, we have informally discussed a lot of the issues leading up to that meeting
[16:55]    <JoeBorn>    and second, no outsiders showed up with specific questions, etc.

Okay, so now what? What's the answer to the question "When are we going to get the device we invested in?" What conculsions have you guys come to in the discussions "leading up to that meeting" you had on Saturday? If I were you Joe, I would not be as quiet as you are!

It sounds to me like you guys have back-burnered the 442v2 because the OSD is going to be your next hot product. From the info I've seen, you may be right. It sounds great. But guess what? I'm not going to buy one. Further, I'd be willing to bet that anyone who feels slighted by the lack of progress on the 442v2 isn't going to buy one either. You're about an inch away from turning guaranteed sales to consumers who started off believing in your company and ideas into alienation and bitterness. If I'm way off base here, someone please set me straight.

Tell us what we want to know or lose us forever. I've still got my original packaging and I'm not afraid to use it.

Well, it's pretty obvious that we bit off more than we could chew taking on two products at once. Lesson learned.

So What should we do now? If we don't do the 442v2, we're effectively exiting the portable market which built our community and still holds primary interest for the vast majority of our current community today. If we continue to make promises and not keep them, that will make things even worse.

Obviously, no matter what, we'll support return privledges (as we always have).

I continue to believe that there is a material market for an open source, evolving media player. The reality is that development will be slower than any of us anticipated. I also continue to believe that the 442v2 is an important step to getting an N3 in any form out. I believe we should plan on continuing to develop the 442v2 hardware and work hard to recruit community contributions. This surely will yield a slower schedule than will be acceptable for most, but we'll be candid and let the original purchasers decide for themselves what's right for them.

Quote from: JoeBorn on August 29, 2006, 11:11:55 AM

I now understand you don't have a good handle on when the 442v2 will actually be ready and don't want to make promises.
I would still like to know if you think it will be ready in
6 month
12 month
18 month
or a 24 month?

Quote from: JEFFH on August 30, 2006, 05:59:38 PM

I believe we'll be releasing 50 pieces within 60 days, these will be primarily useful to hackers that want a headstart on getting things to work, May1937, the original N2 hackers, the Rockbox folks, etc. I'm hopeful that we can have something useful by the year end, and do our pilot run then (200 peices). It's really all up to the firmware development schedule though. Obviously, we'll use a lot of OSD code, but power management and a comprehensive MP3 player interface/dbase are two big missing peices.

The hardware seems to be ready for a "beta run" of 50 peices now, but the internal resources for the firmware are lacking. This is what makes the estimation of time so difficult, this is very much going to rely on the community.

Quote from: JoeBorn on September 01, 2006, 06:21:05 PM

. . . . I'm hopeful that we can have something useful by the year end, and do our pilot run then . . . It's really all up to the firmware development schedule though. . . . power management and a comprehensive MP3 player interface/dbase are two big missing peices.

. . . . the internal resources for the firmware are lacking. This is what makes the estimation of time so difficult, this is very much going to rely on the community.

Because there have been a number of inquiries by 442 gamma testers about the expected release date of an updated 442 (442v2), I thought I would repost a portion of my response on the Google Group thread (http://groups.google.com/group/Neuros-DM320Hardware/browse_frm/thread/6facf691f3425068?scoring=d&hl=en&) as I am sure there are a number of people following the 442v2 development that come here and are not aware of that group.

As a gamma tester, I have followed the discussion regarding the 442v2's release date very closely. Based upon Neuros' replies to this issue on this and other forums thus far, it appears that there are enough unknowns and contingencies related to the development of the 442v2 that the release date could perhaps be summed up and paraphrased as 'Unfortunately, we do not know when it will ship but, at the earliest, it will be Summer 2007, maybe later, if ever.'

I don't like to paraphrase others, but what other option is there? I cannot imagine that within Neuros there is no discussion about actual target release dates or goals set to achieve X and Y, so that Z can occur. Earlier in this very thread we have been told that "[Neuros will] be candid and let the original purchasers decide for themselves what's right for them," and I guess that's what we're now left to do, despite 'candidness' being a fairly relative term.

Notwithstanding my noticeable disappointment, I do appreciate Neuros taking the time to respond. That is more than some companies will do and I give Neuros credit in that regard. I think I now have an answer about the 442v2; unfortunately, it was not the answer I was hoping for. I will still follow the 442v2's development with interest but going forward it may or may not be as a gamma tester. Best regards.

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Neuros 442 Personal Media Player => Neuros 442 - Feedback and Discussion => Topic started by: kcmark on June 29, 2006, 12:10:08 PM