Neuros Technology Forums

There's been considerable discussion of the 442v2 on the google mailing list: http://groups.google.com/group/Neuros-DM320Hardware/browse_thread/thread/6facf691f3425068/4b6bbf616ce93f50?lnk=raot#4b6bbf616ce93f50

with some calling the 442v2 "already obsolete" and others maintaining its the greatest thing since sliced bread.  The most recent in the latter category said the below.  Please vote, we'd love to know what you think.

"The 442v2 is one of the most exciting products I've ever seen.  I've
been waiting with unbridled anticipation since I first heard of it,
following the blog and the groups weekly.  Portable AV recording and
playback at DVD quality?  Burr-brown ADC/DACs?  USB Host?  And it runs
Linux!!??  I'm by no means a gadget junkie - I own maybe 10 electronic
devices less than two years old.  And that's because I didn't waste my
money on disposable, locked-down, worthless crap built on a business
model of planned obsolescence.  I waited for the cream to rise to the
top, the hype to die down, and spent my money on well-built,
well-designed products.  And I have been and will continue to wait for
the 442v2.  PLEASE DO NOT EVER THINK OF NOT CARRYING THIS PRODUCT TO
FRUITION!!!  I will weep blood.  There is nothing that I have seen
approaching the plans for the 442v2 either built or planned at any
price."

I voted we'll see when it comes out - and here's my reasoning.

From the hardware side, the Archos 404/604 are what I would consider "state of the art".   The industrial design is spot on, the feature set includes a docking connector, plus all the other stuff one would want, and from what I've been able to discern, the price is right.

Only one thing's missing.  The software it comes with isn't open source.  The hardware specs have to be derived by dissection and reverse engineering.  I'm too busy inventing new stuff and and too overworked trying to reverse engineer our own legacy products to have to do that for a "toy".  I just want to be able to change the things that annoy me - or add functionality I think should be in there in the first place.

That's why the 442v2 is so intruiging.  A device, that at the outset was designed to be hacked / tweaked / modded.  A device who's innards are not a mystery - so that one can get right down to business customizing and extending it.

For this to be useful to me, I have to have a high level of functionality at the outset.  If I have a device that's way behind the curve, is not really functional, or doesn't support the basics (hw AND sw), then it's too "green" for me.  I'm sure I could do a bang-up job of doing the heavy development if so tasked, but with three kids, cub scouts, our school's "dads' project" program, and a boss that demands at least 45-50+ hrs / wk, I just don't have time for that.

I also don't intend on spending $3K+ for a development environment for a $3-400 toy - and I don't have time to figure out how to put one together out of umpteen packages.   If you have to do the development on Linux, that's ok, it's just there needs to be a modded Ubuntu/Debian/Distro du Jour that can run from DVD, preferably with a base "project" that can be copied to disk somewhere and updated via SVN or CVS.  That's the other piece of the puzzle that has to be in place before I can spend any time advancing the platform.   Having everything poised for development is important as every moment spent dinking around getting going is a moment not spent on something truly useful.

The audiophile specs are interesting to me, having worked on high end audio gear, but since I couldn't understand why the people that bought our stuff would spend north of $5K per boxed component for specs they were unlikely to be able to hear, that's a nice to have, but not necessary.

So, that's what I wish for in 442v2 land.  Fortunately for Neuros Tech, I'm not in any hurry to replace my stolen N1 - as I use (and love) my Open Source equiped Openfi+Omnifi in the car, and my PDA is doing an sucky but passable  job of handling my PMP chores.  Otherwise, I'd probably be looking seriously at the aforementioned Archos units.  The ideal unit would be a PMP/PDA/Phone, but since I don't trust cellular carriers further than I can throw them, and I dont' see things changing in my lifetime, I'm not holding my breath.

I know that my requirements are not trivial to accomplish - but fortunately, many of them only need to be done once (like the dev env on DVD).  I was hoping the 442v2 would be higher up the food chain in priority, but as it turns out, the timing (so far) is good for me - but at the same time,  I wonder if it's ok for the market.

So, Neuros Technology, I'm primed and waiting to be a supporter - and, in principle I am already - but if the package is there, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.

Personally, I don't have that much interest in video.  It's rare for me to watch anything on TV, and I don't have a bunch of the other accessories that go with a device like this.

I do have some video I'm trying to get digitized for long-term storage, but it's not stuff I always need to carry around.  (I'm actually more interested in the OSD, although my personal preferences may take me in a different direction.)

I would consider the 442v2 if it would be a complete replacement for the N2 or N3.  The ability to have and show some video would be nice, and I'd pay the extra for the device IF it did all the audio things I want it to.  That's primarily Neuroscast and Ogg Vorbis support.  (I used those two things this very day on my trusty N2.)

I keep seeing the N3 as a cheaper 442v2, which simply does not have the video capability.  If that is literally the case, I'd consider the 442v2 instead of the N3; Video'd be all right, but not at the sacrifice of the audio tools I need.  If the 442v2 does not include Ogg or Neuroscast, it won't meet my needs.

So, I'm not terribly interested, but the gadget freak in me could be convinced.  :)

I  really liked the Idea of the 442 as a gadget and did get some limited use out of the current version.
I went into the gamma test experiment on Sept 6,2005 with  a strong belief in what Neuros was doing and lot of high hopes for the 442v2.
After over a year of waiting and no device even close to being ready im very wary at this point.
Maybe Neuros lacks Focus or  resources I don't know but one thing is certin they are just too slow to market with their promised  products.
ARCHOS already has a complete line of outstanding PMP/PMR that they support with firmware upgrades. The only thing is it s not open source. Then again open source is a nice idea but not the really important thing to to me.
What I want is a high quality fully functional polished device that does what its designed and advertised to do.
A good company that listens to its customers and then makes changes to the firmware to improve the product operation and function.
I feel a quality build fully functional OSD is Neuros best bet at this point but Sandisk is getting ready to launch a OSD type device and threatens to beat Neuros to the punch even on this.

That brings to mind a big question I have in general.
Using the open source community to develope the product and software may save Neuros money but what is to stop competiors with more resources from stealing your ideas and design and moving to market sooner?
A smarter play I feel would be for Neuros to spend the resources to design and develop the product in house and then after initial release make the code they developed available to the community for firmware upgrades and improvements.

First, let me say that the idea of a 442v2 is a great one!  Despite someone's earlier post that they don't watch video, there is a HUGE market for video (just look at the rise of Youtube as an example) and most people would watch it in this format.  Unfortunately, it is an idea that most of us expected to exist in reality more than 6 months ago.  Instead, it is a concept that has appeared to languish amidst a lack of focus from Neuros on what it wants to deliver to the public.  This thread is illustrative of that ever-changing sense of "what do we want to do."  It is good to be responsive and try to meet the perceived needs of the buying public, but it seems to me that you have to do your research and then make a decision to move forward to meet the needs of what the research has shown.

I agree with JeffH's comments that Neuros needed to develop their open source product in-house and then release a finished product with open source code.  Neuros' desire to develop its products from the outset in the open source community, while noble, does not seem to be a good business model for high-priced hardware.  Open source development works extremely well for free (or cheap) software that supports existing hardware but trying to involve the OS community in the development of the hardware from the beginning is akin to trying to herd cats or staple jello to  a wall.  There needs to be more focus and that does not exist in that type of environment where there is little accountability and people are working on the product in their "spare time."  Absent a paradigm shift in how the development of products occurs at Neuros, I do not forsee there being the kind of focus that is necessary to succeed in this market.  Perhaps, Neuros will prove me a wrong (let's hope so), but what products have been released since Neuros moved away from in-house development to this wholly collaborative approach?  Any?  It's a great idea in theory but in this fast-paced industry it appears to be too slow of a process to be successful.

Now, if the 442 was a fully functioning device right now -- (i.e. -- Analog recorder coupled with the features, functionality and reliability of the Creative Zen Vision W) it would sell like hotcakes.   I can already see the guys at PCMag and CNET salivating for such a device.  Clearly, the 442 was hampered by poor hardware design and terrible, buggy software.  As a gamma tester, my fear is that someone else will come out with the equivalent of a working 442 while we sit here and wait forever for the 442v2 to be released. 

Twelve voters?!?

No wonder the 442v2 issues aren't getting addressed!

Do you suppose that there are Gamma testers out there that don't even read these forums anymore?

Short and simple - build a fully functional 442V2, linux based, slick design, let users either upload custom apps
developed by others, or designed on their own.
Sell them the slick hardware that is at the forefront, cool apps and let them take it from there. Give them something
to talk about.


Take a look at the Nokia 770 and Maemo.org, a web template, considered by many as ugly and slow, linux based,
but many many buyers happy with its open source philosophy.

On another note:

Too many places to search for information.
When we do have time to contribute, I find I could spend hours just trying to navigate around Neuros forums, wikis,
blogs, bugzillas, google groups just to find out where one can get the newest information or even where to post it.

Amen.  Way too much time wasted on redundant communication mediums and not enough time on actual product development.

There were a lot more Gamma testers that used to frequent these forums but Neuros is notoriously slow to respond to any inquiries posted here that most no longer bother.

Neuros is lagging behind so much that I think the 442V2 is already washed up.  What the PMP community really wants is player that supports H.264 or .rmvb as well the regular Divx/Xvid files.  If Neuros had decided on that w/ the open source idea, they could take the whole market share but alas they lag and lag and lie about when the V2 will come out and when it does, it will be obsolete.