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jimson8
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15 Posts |
 Posted - 11/23/2003 : 10:48:39 PM
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I just purchased a Neuros recorder that I plan to use to record sound for broadcast on the radio. Problem is, although I have not yet tested the built-in mic, I doubt it will be able to record broadcast-quality audio, not because of poor file quality but because of the physical limitations of the mic itself (and it's awkward and difficult for me, as a reporter, to have to stick this box in people's faces rather than being able to use a microphone). In order to use a regular mic with the line-level input on the Neuros, I had to purchase a special cable for about $70 that amplifies the mic-level input about 20dB.
There's been a vibrant discussion going back and forth on several radio listservs recently about the need for a digital audio recorder with a mic-level input jack (it's surprising that it doesn't exist already!). Most of us have been using portable minidisc, tape or DAT recorders, but we'd love a reliable, digital solution where we'd simply be able to transfer the audio files into our computer editing programs rather than waiting while they dub in real time. Neuros should seriously consider including a line-level mic jack (with the capability to both manually and automatically adjust record levels)in future products. |
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plazar3(at)netscape.net
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6 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 01:41:32 AM
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| My wife is a voice student. she could really use a high fidelity means of recording her lessons, but even boom boxes lack a microphone input. The typical 1/2 hour lesson is not so long that it can not fit on even a 128MB unit. These digital recorders are soo very close to eliminating cassette tapes at an affordable price. All they need is the input for a pair of wide frequency response microphones. They all seem to be designed for stealing music. Don't enough people actually MAKE music anymore for marketing departments of the various DVR manufacturers to have discovered such a need? The Neuros have some really class act features. Music departments at universities would be a gold mine of customers, if you could turn it into a basic stereo mike recording studio. |
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Cool4u2view
Neuros Audio Team
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3397 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 11:16:52 AM
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People who record don't use Mic inputs... They use Line in with an amplifier.
Besides the Neuros has an onboard mic... set the gain to 20 and you should be able to record whatever you like.
-Jeff |
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IanJ
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24 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 1:47:18 PM
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I agree that it would be fabulous to have a mic input -- what I'd really like to see is an arrangement where there's a mic preamp attached to the "line in" jack (which would have to be renamed to "audio in" or something), which can be switched in and out of the path, so that you can plug in either a line-level source or a mic-level source. The hardware should ideally be able to switch the preamp out of the path when it senses line-level voltages to avoid damaging things. Turning on the mic preamp would probably have to be manual, since there's no easy way to tell the difference between a quiet line-level input and a loud mic-level input (unless you want to go around sensing impedance, but that's probably too much work for this price-point).
Until that change is made, it couldn't be that hard to use a small mic preamp like this one: https://www.outwardsound.com/products.php/13/193/?PHPSESSID=230d9960ea624e5d8341c512ffb81d3a
Sure, it's more money, but paying $200 for a good-quality recorder in any kind of professional capacity is an insane bargain. That's nothing compared to a professional-quality portable MD recorder for $1000+. (Yes, I'm aware that they're not comparable, I'm "just sayin'").
128/20 bundle, Seattle, WA |
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unknown_lamer
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133 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 4:21:03 PM
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If you spent $70 on a cable that boosts the signal by 20dB you were ripped off. Cables can't boost the signal level...maybe you purchased a lo-z to hi-z impedance matcher, which still should have only cost maybe fifteen bucks. The problem, I think, is that any mic worth using (except for my hi-z overhead mics, but don't tell anyone I own them...) is going to be lo-z (low impedance) and the Neuros' line in in high impedance (probably 250 kOhms or so) so the lo-z mic isn't having too much fun being run into an impedance load that high.
For the Neuros to accept lo-z inputs it would need a different set of input hardware and would be quite expensive. So just buy a hi-z mic or a twenty dollar impedance matcher. |
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badpoetryabounds
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Posted - 11/25/2003 : 11:10:12 AM
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You can use a regular microphone on the line in jack. Then simply normalize the recording in a digital audio editing program like Adobe Audition. It works great for me. There's not buzz in the background with a decent microphone.
Also, you could use a powered mic and not have to worry about normalizing the recording.
I use my Neuros every day for recording (I'm not a reporter anymore, but I work in politics) press conferences, interviews, and actualities. It works wonders. By the way, the internal mic is actually pretty damn good, and it's really no different than holding a handheld cassette recorder up to someone. Actually, it may make people feel more at ease than shoving a mic in their faces.
badpoetryabounds |
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IanJ
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Posted - 11/26/2003 : 1:04:29 PM
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If you guys are looking for a professional solid-state recorder, you're kind of barking up the wrong tree. There is one available: http://www.martelelectronics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store;_Code=ME∏_Code=PMD670&Category;_Code=MDRR, a Marantz PMD670. There must be others as well, that's just one that I noticed recently. It's not cheap, but real professional gear never is, as I was saying in my previous post on this subject. The Neuros is definitely a consumer device, and has features and price to match.
If you want a real microphone input (and by "real" I mean an XLR with available phantom power, none of this sissy 3.5mm headphone plug stuff), get the Marantz. If you want an inexpensive digital recorder, get a line-level amplifier box and use your Radio Shack tie-clip with the Neuros, or go back and up the level in Audition after you've recorded your audio. But please, don't get the Neuros expecting it to be a piece of professional-quality gear with commensurate features.
128/20 bundle, Seattle, WA |
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badpoetryabounds
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Posted - 11/26/2003 : 2:30:21 PM
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I have a Marantz Mini-disc recorder here at work, but I bought the Neuros for personal and work use. I use it in my car in leiu of my CD player (my car stereo was always touchy about burned discs), and the flash pack is nice for walking around the lake.
You can't tell the difference in sound quality at all between the Mini-Disc and the Neuros. I'd agree that a Marantz recorder like that would be nice, but in all honesty, if you're looking for a recorder that can instanteously transfer a sound file to a computer (instead of the Mini-Disc or cassette where you have to play it via a board into your computer), the Neuros is a great product for it.
Besides, the battery life on the Marantz products is pretty abysmal, and they aren't exactly small...
bpa |
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plazar3(at)netscape.net
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6 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 3:47:26 PM
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My original interest was simply in capturing music lessons for play back and study later, not a recording studio quality deck. I may be dating myself but I remember when a Sony TC100 casette deck was sufficient for the task, but wow, flutter and frequency stability were always more of an issue than anything. From what I have learned to date, the Neuros 128 with perhaps a 50-100 dollar battery powered microphone or preamp+mic makes a heck of a lesson recorder and gives great archiving and playback flexibility.
The original posting was about recording for radio playback, Can not speak for that person for sure but I suspect they also have a need short of state of the art studio.
With preamp input, the new WAV recording capability and the 20Gb hard drive, the capture quality may be WAY more than what I need. WAV on a 128Mb unit is too much |
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In A Vacuum
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34 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2003 : 03:43:30 AM
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If I had a stereo mic from a minidisc player can I just plug it
into the Neuros and record a live show? If not, where can I get a
cheap amp to boost the signal?
Thanks.
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the_emo_kid
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107 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2003 : 2:01:35 PM
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quote:
But please, don't get the Neuros expecting it to be a piece of professional-quality gear with commensurate features.
like most people, I read the specs before I purchased and knew there wasn't a preamp input, so I didn't expect it, but this is a wish list of things we would like in the future, is it not?! why not add a preamp input?
quote:
If I had a stereo mic from a minidisc player can I just plug it
into the Neuros and record a live show? If not, where can I get a
cheap amp to boost the signal?
no you can't just plug it as the signal would be to weak..
The bottom line here - we need a mic-level input, sure if we turn the gain up on the onboard mic we can record whatever we like - but the quality sucks. If we want to use am external mic, we have to buy an amplifier! Why do that to a product, I mean sony knows better than that, as the put mic inputs on their MD recorders and what not, why not be the ones to provide that on a HD-based mp3 recorder
quote:
People who record don't use Mic inputs... They use Line in with an amplifier.
I'm surprised that you jeff know the recording habits of everyone (or that you're willing to make such a generlized statement...) |
Edited by - the_emo_kid on 12/23/2003 2:08:19 PM |
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Stephenn
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Posted - 01/04/2004 : 8:51:51 PM
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Check out the FAQs here:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com
They have alot of good tips. For good results, get a mic preamp and "battery module" (which biases the mic properly).
I am with you on this though, if someone had put in a good mic preamp and bias on a MP3 recorder, I would get one. But the market for something like that is pretty small. |
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Third Rail Design Lab
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Posted - 01/05/2004 : 12:39:47 AM
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As a Moderator in a Minidisc user forum, T-Station, I talked with the DI team several times about the current (April 03) and future state of Neuros' onboard recording options. I believe they made the correct choice in providing a line in, but not a mic in, jack. The associated cost versus the quality of input on the mic in makes it prohibitive, given the other issues prioritized before it, such as WAV recording, multiple recording levels, etc. Though it's true that many portable recorder users do use Mic In (especially popular with MD users without sophisticated recording gear) most DAT users, and the MD users who've put some money into their recording setup, have gone the route of using line in, combined with a good quality set of mics (binaural is popular for source specific recording) and a battery module. The balance of the recording, the quality of the boosted mic sensitivity, and the bass roll-off filter in the battery module make the resulting recorded data the most consistent content.
By "most" I mean the majority of serious MD and DAT users that I have known, talked to, or dealt with on the forums. Does this invalidate the demand for a mic in? I don't think so. I would guess that 'most' Neuros users, based on comments I read on this forum daily, don't have a battery module and mic set up as I described. Therefore, a mic in would satisfy the broader ranger of Neuros users. That having been said, the DI team have worked to provide high-quality lossy or lossless field recording capability on the Neuros that rivals many MD units, and surpasses other HDD's on the market (and did so months before they were able to compete at all)...
Just the two cents of someone who makes field recordings regularly. |
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In A Vacuum
Posting is for Closers
34 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2004 : 01:44:20 AM
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So where can I find a cheap "battery module?" The site linked let to a FAQ that said 'this is not for boosting the signal for mic in'
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EricMatz
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Posted - 01/06/2004 : 10:37:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephenn
But the market for something like that is pretty small.
The market may be small, but I doubt the feature would be that costly to add. Look at the competition - the new iRiver iHP-120 is touting a Stereo microphone input (1/8" miniplug) with "plug in power", eliminating the need for an external preamp. I won't go into comparing the other features, but that thing is $399. I don't know what the Neuros cost prior to the drop to $199, but I'm guessing not as much as the iRiver. Add a mic input and keep the price down, the competition won't be able to hang (assuming the other features are similar/better...again, I don't know). Extra hardware (battery packs, expensive mics, "special cables") is a hassle.
I sing with a group of 50 guys, each one of which records the 3-hour weekly rehearsal for them to review the rest of the week (using a lavalier mic - we are stanging on risers the entire time). Most use minidisc or cassette, but I know many who are itching for something digital. It would be awesome to be able archive whatever you want to save without having to go through the hassle of ripping it to MP3 or saving stacks of tapes/MDs. There are hundreds more groups just like us around the country, so there's a market (albeit small) to be tapped.
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Edited by - EricMatz on 01/06/2004 10:41:48 AM |
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plazar3(at)netscape.net
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Posted - 01/06/2004 : 5:09:17 PM
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First, if the Neuros has a built in mike, does it not have at least some kind of pre-amp circuit inherently, even if mono? Question is how to jack into and bypass the built in mike circuit?
Second, I have seen an amplified stereo mike unit from Sound Professionals (SP-BOOSTER). Specifications look passable for most of the purposes discussed here, but for ca. $80, I am reluctant to try without asking has anyone else tried it with the Neuros? |
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rocketman768
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26 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 4:50:27 PM
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| I tried to get around this problem by using a simple op-amp circuit and a 9-volt battery...didn't turn out too well...not too much amplification and a heck of a lot of noise. But, there's got to be a low-noise, simple circuit somewhere that does the 60db boost quite nicely. Please, for God's sakes, does anybody electronic-savvy know of such a circuit? |
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aidoc
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Posted - 01/13/2004 : 06:59:15 AM
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Im waiting for a solid state mp3 player/recorder to become available which has a stereo microphone input socket. I am a musician and record sounds and samples for use in compositions.
It would be great if a stereo mini jack input was implemented. And also the ability to record in an uncompressed format such as wav or aiff.
Somebody suggested using an XLR input. This would defeat the purpose of portability for me. Somebody also metioned recording into the line in and then increasing the gain in a software application. This deteriorates the sound quality (which is crucialy important to me). Recording sound at 16bits very quietly and then amplfying it is analogous to recording the sound in at a lower bit rate to begin with as the audio is effectivley 'rounded-off' on amplification.
(This would work better with 24bit formats however)
I would definetly buy a Nueros if this were implemeted. |
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EricMatz
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Posted - 01/13/2004 : 07:47:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by aidoc
It would be great if a stereo mini jack input was implemented. And also the ability to record in an uncompressed format such as wav or aiff.
I believe the latest firmware allows you to record in .wav format up to 48khz.
My Neuros is coming today. I'm going to give the recording a shot. I just need something that I can do music recordings on, listen to them for a week or so, and save what I want. Having that capability in the same unit as an MP3 jukebox is sweet. I'll post my thoughts after I have a chance to play around. |
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kronin
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1144 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2004 : 10:12:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by EricMatz
quote:
Originally posted by aidoc
It would be great if a stereo mini jack input was implemented. And also the ability to record in an uncompressed format such as wav or aiff.
I believe the latest firmware allows you to record in .wav format up to 48khz.
This is correct. You can set record quality to 48 KHz wav since at least firmware 1.45 (I think it was in there earlier, though). |
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EricMatz
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Posted - 01/13/2004 : 7:59:47 PM
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Neuros came today. Got the 128 MB for $99 at JandR. Figured I'd get one of the new USB2 backpacks for more storage when they come out.
Anyway, tried the voice recorder. The sound from the built-in mic isn't bad, but there was some background noise - which is odd, this not being a hard-drive backpack. It was charging at the time, so who knows.
No luck whatsoever with an external mic. I tried two mics (one being a condenser) and did not hear a thing on the recordings. I'll try the line-in with another source later to make sure I don't have a bad jack. Next step will be trying an amplified external mic. |
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Need Mic-Level Input Jack!
